You Don’t Need to Be Flashy To Become a Legend. Just Ask Michael Cooper

DAVID GREENE, HOST: Hey, everybody. You know, this week I really want to dig into what relationships mean in sports. We’re heading into the NBA Finals now. We’ve got the San Antonio Spurs, who are gonna be going up against the New York Knicks, and Spurs star Victor Wembanyama had a really emotional moment after winning Game Seven against Oklahoma City, talking about Gregg Popovich, the legendary coach of the Spurs, still very involved in the organization. And I think we really got a window into how much relationships matter when it comes to athletes, coaches, and sports in general. And that kind of sets up the NBA Finals. I’m with Marcus Thompson. He’s a lead columnist at The Athletic, covered the series between the Spurs and Oklahoma City Thunder. Marcus, talk me through this relationship as you see it. Wemby, Pop, one of the most legendary coaches in NBA history, still involved in the Spurs organization. What did you witness these past few days?

MARCUS THOMPSON II: It really is like a match made in heaven in that sense. Because the Spurs have always been like preeminent when it comes to scouting the international player and infiltrating like the international player into the NBA. You know, you got Manu Ginóbili and Tony Parker, these guys did not play American college basketball. And you know, they’re part of a long list. So in many ways, it was just the perfect setting for this Frenchman to come in. And you can just see that the experience and the voice of Popovich it just matters to Wembanyama. He is— and this is a kid who probably since he was what in middle school? Was gonna be an NBA player, right?

DG: Yeah, tall guy, 7’4″ I think?

MT: 7’5″ now!

DG: 7’5, wow. He’s growing. (Laughs)

MT: And he’s had designs on being the best player in basketball. Like that’s he’s not, he was, making the NBA was too small. He wanted to be the best. And you could see that by how he latched on to Popovich. Because he’s smart enough to know this guy knows how to do this. And they just have this kind of, this bond. They have these moments. There was a famous, you know, a viral moment where he’s just sitting over there talking to Popovich after a practice. Like that stuff matters to him. He’s a very bright kid, very thoughtful, super intelligent. So the wisdom of Popovich and the just the intellectual capacity of Wembanyama seems to be a really good match for a kid who’s it just in a space players just don’t get to be in. Like LeBron, maybe Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. This is rare air he’s operating in.

DG: Expectations, though, so high, and this kid is still so young. Now going into the NBA Finals, like how much is he gonna need, like a grandfatherly, wise type of person like Popovich as he navigates these next couple weeks and all the big lights and the big stage?

MT: I think what he’ll need Popovich for is a lot of off-the-court. It’s the “bad game,” “you play terrible,” or you know, which for him is never really terrible, but in his mind, he probably felt like he played terrible, and he needs a voice to tell him like this is part of it, you know, or heading into like a Game Seven type of setting. Popovich gives him that bigger than basketball thing.

DG: Yeah.

MT: And Mitch Johnson, the coach, is like the guy he’s gonna need to conquer the Knicks. So it’s a great balance they have. I do think he’s come across these moments. These moments he’s dreamed about, right? These are— that’s the thing with him. This isn’t stuff like that’s foreign to him. He wanted these moments. He willed himself there. So when you get there, it does get to be a bit of like, hey, this is large, right? This is massive. And he understands it. That’s why he’s basically crying when he won the Western Conference Finals. That that type of moment you normally see when you win a championship. We saw it at the West Finals because he is perfectly aware of what is happening, because this was all part of his plan. So I do think that’s where Popovich comes in. Like, how do you take these massive concepts and dreams and really kinda like keep yourself grounded while you’re thinking this stuff? Like that’s where a Popovich comes in handy for Wembanyama.

DG: Ever seen anything like this in sports? Like a legendary coach. I mean, Popovich wins, you know, a string of titles with the Spurs. He’s coaching. He has a stroke a couple of years ago and obviously has to step back, but he’s still such a presence in this organization. And I mean, I could see that being a distraction if it didn’t go so well. But this just seems like it works. Like you’ve got a coach, you’ve got sort of a coach emeritus who is still really involved in this way. I just don’t know if I’ve ever seen anything like this.

MT: Nah, this is completely unique. In a league of egos, this doesn’t happen. I mean, David, I mean, you know, how many people would be pissed that, hey, we’re talking about Popovich, and they’re like, “Man, I’m the one doing the job, right?” Like that’s that’s professional sports. But Popovich built this, right? And part of how he built it is this kind of like a concept of like everybody’s involved. We aren’t driven by ego. Oddly enough, the thing that allows him to do it is the thing he created. And he created it in such a way that a coach emeritus, like you say, can also step in and have a say. Not everybody likes that. And so the fact that it worked for the Spurs is very Spursian.

DG: Spursian, I like that term. Before we talk a little bit about the finals, I want to talk about Oklahoma City a little bit. I mean, defending champions, they go out in this painful game seven. How devastating was that for you know this fan base in Oklahoma that I think really thought that they were, you know, maybe on the road to repeating this year?

MT: This is gonna sound cruel, David, but Oklahoma City’s used to this. I mean, has a fan base been more heartbroken? Like this, they’ve just gotten so many daggers. I mean, this is one. Klay Thompson in Game Six in 2016, losing Kevin Durant, right? This fan base…

DG: Right. Yeah.

MT: This fan base is special in part because in Oklahoma City, they feel it. Like everybody feels it. This is now how the city feels. That’s brutal because this was supposed to be a dynasty. And you gotta know how bad Oklahoma City wanted that. Now they’re looking at a guy in Wembanyama and a team of the Spurs that really makes a dynasty look not possible anymore. So in the end, they might just be a one-off championship. Like, hey, they got their one. Let’s go, let’s go back to appreciating that. Now they could get back there again, and it’s like one of those you got two and five years thing, but with the way Wembanyama look, get the championship, if you don’t get it now, when are you getting it?

DG: Yeah. Well, I wanna, I mean what what an amazing storyline this Spurs-Knicks series is. And obviously, you’ve got some of the NBA nuts who have been following every game of each of these, you know, series during the playoffs. Then you have some people who are just starting to hear about, you know, the Knicks getting back to the championship after all their, you know, crazy periods of failure, and they hear this name Wembanyama. I mean, how do you narratively set up this series for people who haven’t been following that closely?

MT: We’re witnessing one of the most historic events in NBA history.

DG: Wow.

MT: Like this is massive. Right number one, if the Knicks pull this off, like you gotta understand this is gonna be one of the great upsets of sports. Largely because the Knicks haven’t won in forever.

DG: Right.

MT: Like not in my lifetime, right?

DG: And were losers forever. Like were years of losers, like…

MT: This is the Cubs getting over the curse, right? Like, this is the Warriors breaking a 40-year drought. Like this is one of those stories where they’ve had this die-hard fan base for so long, and they’ve had all the money and all the resources and all their opportunities and just could never get it right. Them finally getting it right is just huge, because it’s New York, because it’s the Knicks, one of the glory franchises, but also because of that part. And then on top of that, David, we just— you just don’t see the superstar being a small guard. Right? It’s what made Steph Curry amazing. Like you— these things don’t happen like this. They’re rare. And here go the Knicks with this 6’1″, 6’2″ at best Jalen Brunson, who was never at any point in his career pegged to be a franchise, you know, championship bearer, right? Like, the storylines here are just insane. Not to mention, like, you got the Spike Lee and all the celebrity…

DG: Timothy Chalamet and Jimmy Fallon, and the whole Knicks celebrity core. Yeah. Yeah.

MT: If the Knicks win, this will be a historic moment in basketball history, and if the Spurs win, we’re witnessing the crowning, perhaps, of the next greatest player we’ve ever seen. Like this is the beginning of it. And we all know it. We know it. That’s what’s different about it. Like LeBron came into the league in ’03. He didn’t win his first championship till 2012.

DG: Yeah, it took a while.

MT: You know, Steph, won his first championship in 2015. We didn’t know what was coming. You just, you don’t always know, like, we are cognitively aware this dude might be the best we’ve ever seen, and this is the beginning right here. If he wins a championship in his first ever playoffs, that’s— David, that just can’t be understated. He’s in the finals in his first playoffs.

DG: Yeah.

MT: You name your great, they didn’t do this. If he wins a championship in his first one, like either way it goes in the series, we’re witnessing something that will be chronicled in a thousand years when the aliens find the book about our life.

DG: (Laughs) I love that this is mark your words today. I love that. But before I let you go, I want to talk a little bit about unsung heroes, especially during playoff and championship time. We’re gonna listen to an interview with former LA Lakers defensive genius Michael Cooper. I feel like he tells us something about legendary teams. Like, you know, you hear the big names like a Magic or like a Larry Bird, or but I mean there’s sometimes key pieces of teams, championship teams in basketball and any sport, who you just look back and you say, that dynasty wouldn’t have happened without that person, even though they weren’t getting all the headlines.

[MUSIC]

MT: No question. And I would venture to say all the time, like every time, every championship team, there’s that player who you’re like, they don’t win without that. And the way social media has simplified the discourse into this debate between the stars, it misses that.

DG: Yeah.

MT: You don’t get there without that player who every fan base comes to love. Right? And that fan base, this player is like a deity, right? A’Ja Wilson is the face of the Aces, the dynasty, four-time MVP. But you ask anybody about Chelsea Gray. Like you don’t win without Chelsea Gray, right? Every single dynasty that’s ever happened. Great players end up being a wash, right? Great against great, it’s the other players who really determine it, provided the greats play great. And those, you know, Bird, Magic series. Bird and Magic, they were both stellar. They were outstanding, right? But Cedric Maxwell won the finals MVP once, right? Like that, it’s players like that, those are the players that really make up a championship team because they do the things in the moment you need them to happen while everybody’s paying attention to the superstar. And if you’re gonna win, you need people who come up with that. I think that’s one of the reasons Oklahoma City is not in the finals right now. Shai was incredible, right? But there were— it’s Alex Caruso, he’s gotta make shots. Jared McCain has gotta make shots. Other guys gotta make them— they just didn’t have enough where San Antonio’s got like five of those guys who just you never know, he might be the reason they win. That’s the part we can’t lose in sports. Like, I know we can yell about it, we can argue about greats and debate who’s the best, and all this talk about GOATs where everybody’s a GOAT now. Don’t miss the glue players, the real driving forces, because championships are won by teams, and they are critical to teams.

DG: And when we come back on Sports America, we’re gonna hear from one of those glue players, unsung heroes from Lakers lore, Michael Cooper. But for now, Marcus Thompson, lead columnist at The Athletic. Thank you so much, Marcus. It’s always great talking to you.

MT: Absolutely. Anytime you need me, I got you.

MIDROLL

ANNOUNCER: Couple in a hurry to get in trouble. Cooper is all over Bird. Bird can’t move. Ball thrown by Michael Cooper. He’s going to slam it.

[CROWD CHEERS]

ANNOUNCER: Blocked by Cooper. The defensive player of the year doing what he does so well.

[MUSIC]

MICHAEL COOPER: You look at a guy scoring 20 plus points a game. You look at a guy getting 18 rebounds a game, all I was trying to do was stop them, other people from doing it.

DG: The people who get the most attention in the world of sports are usually the flashy players, the quarterback who looks deep to score, the batter who hits the ball out of the park, the guard who drops 40 points in a single game. Michael Cooper was not one of those quintessentially flashy players.

MC: It’s the role that nobody really wants. Roll your sleeves up and go down in the manhole, pull out all the, whatever it is down there, and throw it up. And then those guys go like this, and they put it in the bag, and it looks real cute, and then they put over there.

DG: He was a killer defender in the 80s, just a terror to go up against on the court. A guy who seemed to be able to tip the ball the very second before it was caught or lift it right out of another player’s hands. His defense helped earn the LA Lakers five championships, and he made protecting the ball look easy, even though it was anything but.

MC: I tell kids nowadays is, you know what, everybody can’t be Steph Curry or Devin Booker or Kevin Durant, but everybody, with a little bit of hard work and that heart and desire, everybody can be a Ben Wallace, a Michael Cooper, a Joe Dumars on the defensive end because defense is just about hard work, it’s how bad you want it.

DG: Michael retired from the Lakers after 12 seasons in 1991, but he didn’t leave basketball behind. He’s played internationally, he’s become a championship-winning WNBA coach, and even led high school and college basketball teams. Last year, he wrote a biography. It’s called “COOP: The Making of a Showtime Lakers Legend.” Today on Sports in America, tenacious defender Michael Cooper on playing with legends like Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Battling deep-seated insecurity within himself and the importance of humble hard work in turning a behind-the-scenes role into a role worthy of a highlight reel.

Michael, nice to meet you. I’m David.

MC: Nice to meet you, David pleasure.

DG: Can I start with just a basic question? I love to ask, you know most authors. Why’d you want to write a book about your life?

MC: Well, it started out not necessarily about my life, but it started more about the Lakers, and everybody else has written a book, Pat Riley, Magic. I think both of them have written two each. Kareem, you’ve heard people about that. Other people that weren’t even around have written books about that, so I just wanted people to hear my side of the story, and then it kind of turned into like a biography, and I wanted people to know the ins and outs and it’s not just necessarily my story. My journey is different from other people, but it’s the journey that everybody makes. Whether it be in the corporate world, whether it’d be in the everyday world. And in this instance, it happened to be an athletic world. And when you do that, you know, again, everybody comes to their hard times, or their so-called hard times, to get to where they wanna be at the end, and that’s at the top most of the time. But again, it’s not about being at the top; it’s just about coming through your struggle, your journey, and coming out the best person that you can be.

DG: I love the way you put that, whether you’re a diehard sports fan who watched every single championship series that you played in, or also, you know, someone who hasn’t, who’s never been a fan of the NBA. It’s just, there are lessons in a sports journey that really are relatable and resonate.

MC: On both sides of the fence, it does. And I mean, like I said, my dad was a janitor, a custodian at the elementary school. Here he is, 45, 50 years old before he passed away. And he was quite comfortable with that. But a lot of the things that we talked about, he and I talked about the time that I was able to spend with him, was kind of like the things that I had went through. It’s just that his was that way, mine happened to be on the athletic side.

DG: Yeah, well, take me to one very important moment in your whole journey, and that was the it was draft night 1978 when you found out that you were chosen by the LA Lakers. Can you paint a picture like where you were and what it felt like, and who called you?

MC: Well, you know, again, being from Pasadena, California, a lot of the players that you hear about, some of the guys that— Reggie Theus, Dennis Johnson— guys I grew up with were getting drafted by teams back East. And I had not had that stellar college career. I wasn’t a big-time scorer in college. So the draft didn’t mean anything to me. You know, I sit there, I’m watching. Biting my fingernails and trying to find out where I’m gonna go. I was out playing basketball. I was down at the park, and I was doing what I normally do every single night in the evening because I love basketball.

DG: So you were just wherever this ends up, I’ll go there, but I’m not gonna sit there stressing myself out.

[MUSIC]

MC: I’ll go there, wherever. So I’m playing, and I knew the draft was on, but I wasn’t even thinking about it. Going down there, my cousin came down. Brad, he came running to the gym. He was like, “Michael, you gotta get home.” I’m like, I’m thinking, “What’s wrong? What’s wrong?” He goes, “You got drafted, man.” I said, “By who?” He said, “The Lakers. And Jerry West is gonna be calling, you gotta go home and take the phone call.” So I finished my game, because we were two points away from winning. (Laughs) So I finished the game and I ran home and that’s when I found out and all my family was excited about it and I was a little, I was a little nervous. I was actually scared because again, you always hope for that call. You always want that opportunity, and here it was, it was being given me a chance, and I’m like, okay, wow, this is the big league. This is the show. So I got the call from Jerry, and that’s how I found out.

DG: And how much more did it mean that it was the Lakers and not just any NBA team, it was the Lakers, and you grew up here.

MC: Well, it’s a little bit more special, but it was also a little terrifying too, because now, you know, when you get drafted by the Portland Trail Blazers or the Cleveland Cavaliers, and you got at least back there, okay, your family will have to kind of like follow you through the newspaper because you’re back there by yourself. And for me, I’m in my backyard, so everybody’s gonna be watching. So, that was a little nerve wracking, but I loved it because the fact that the Lakers I knew had an older team, and they were kind of in that process of trying to become young or get younger. So I knew that it was going to be tough for me to make it because they had a lot of veterans. They had about four or five veterans. So it was gonna be difficult. And you have to remember the Lakers had Jamaal Wilkes, Kareem, Norm Nixon to go along with all those other players.

DG: As far as Michael’s friends, family, his entire city, really, we’re all concerned, he was living the dream. He had just been drafted by his hometown team, none other than the Los Angeles Lakers, stacked with legends at the time. But shortly after he was drafted, Michael got hurt, and he had to sit for his entire first season with the team. It took him a full year to get on the court, and he was really worried his spot on the team would be at risk if he didn’t show them how good he could be. So now it’s 1979, Michael knows he’s got to make a quick name for himself. As he’s trying to get back into the groove, the Lakers draft yet another legend, Magic Johnson. And Michael and Magic they become pretty fast friends.

MC: The one that really solidified me was like, “Coop, we’re gonna help you make this team,” was Magic.

DG: Wow, that must have been really special.

MC: Well, it was, you know, after watching him play the previous year and the things he did at Michigan State and the enthusiasm that he came in. And that was the one thing that was so surprising about Magic when he came in: he made playing basketball fun. Because at that point, when I first got there, it was kind of like, okay, this is a job. You got to play as hard as you can to make the team. And you got to remember other guys are on the team trying to make a team, feed their families, feed themselves, and so, but when Magic came in, he just brought a different atmosphere about it. And that’s what I kind of liked about it, because you know what? It is basketball. Yeah, it’s hard work, but it should be fun work. And Magic was the one I was like, “Coop, come on, man.” He’s kicked me every morning. Wake me up. We go to breakfast. We were at Ocotillo Lounge down in Palm Springs. We used to practice at College of the Desert. And, we had the, we stayed at Dr. Buss’s, this hotel, and he was right across from me. So at 5:30 in the morning, he’d wake me up, we’d go over and have breakfast. I remember he used to get the USA Today sports page, and then we would talk about basketball, and we would just talk and what we gonna do and eat. Over there for about 45 minutes or an hour, come back, get ready for practice, and we’d go. And he was the one that was like, “Cooper, we gotta make this team, you gotta make the team. ”

DG: It’s so amazing because I feel like it’s like that’s the Magic Johnson that we knew on the outside as fans, like just that, I don’t know that energy, that positive energy, and the smile and everything. It’s kind of cool to hear that that’s what it was like on the inside, too.

MC: Yeah. And that’s, I think, that’s solidified us as, as being like the Laker family. And he started, that started permeating through the team. We’d get there, you know, I made the team, they got rid of some of the older players, and we started getting young players, and Jamaal Wilkes was still a pretty much young player. Jamal, I believe, was like 28, 29 at that time. So, that was our journey, and it was fun. And for me, practice has always been vital. You know, a lot of players don’t like practice. I can, it’s not in the book, but I talked about Allen Iverson, you know, hey, he hated practice. He just wanted to play the games. He was that kind of guy. Well, for me, it was important that I played in practice because that gave me a chance to get my conditioning down, develop my game a little bit more, and then get into what the team was about. So, for practice, that was very important. So I enjoyed going to practice every single day.

DG: So your specialty, I mean, you were known as the, the defensive stopper on the, the legendary Lakers teams. I mean was, talk to me about that role. I mean is, were you honing that in those practices that you felt were so important? Is it more important for a defensive player to practice and strengthen, and go through that conditioning? Like what makes being a defender distinctive?

[MUSIC]

MC: Well, I think that’s the important thing about basketball. Now that you tell kids, they’re on both sides of the court. Can you be great at both of them? You could be kind of a scale of 1 to 10. You can be at 80. I mean, you look at Michael Jordan and the late Kobe, I mean, both of them are 10 plus on the offensive end, but on defensive end, both of those players are about eight or nine. You know, they don’t have to be the best. But for me, the one important thing that I had to understand This is when I first got with the Lakers. I walked in the training camp over there, and Jerry West tells me, “Coop, there’s not enough shots for you to go around, so we need a defensive player.” And that kind of like-

DG: (Laughs) Let’s just lay that out there from the beginning.

MC: From the beginning, because you know what I had? Looked in, I walked into the camp with Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon, and Kareem. And that’s, Kaream is, what, 30 shots if he wants. Jamal is about 25 if he wants. And Norm is getting all the rest of them. So, going in and I really believe that I always was groomed for this particular position, a six-man defensive player, because in my high school coach, George Turgeon very fundamental about the defense footwork get your feet moving, understanding where you’re supposed to be on the court. Then I go to New Mexico, and Norm Ellenberger was that tenacious defender, “Get up in it, Coop,” “Press them full court,” “Run,” and you’re playing in the altitude in Albuquerque, you know, we’re way above sea level. So the conditioning part was so great for me there. And then that tenacity part, and then coming to the Lakers, I just kind of like put it together. And I think the one thing that really helped me become a very good defensive player was when Pat Riley became the head coach. Pat bought those two together, the fundamental aspects of defense for me, the tenacity from Coach Ellenberger, and now Pat added that attention to detail, okay? “Coop, you guard your guy, but this is what we have to do as a team.” So I became a better team defender, as well as that one-on-one defender with the Los Angeles Lakers. So for me the mindset, and I tell kids nowadays is, you know what, everybody can’t be Steph Curry or Kevin Booker or Kevin Durant, but everybody, with a little bit of hard work and that heart and desire, everybody can be a Ben Wallace, a Michael Cooper, a Joe Dumars on the defensive end because defense is just about hard work, is how bad you want it. I can work as hard as I want to be the best shooter I can, but you’re not gonna shoot the ball like Steph Curry. So why put all that energy into that when I can put it into something that’s going, one, keep me on a team, two. Keep me on the floor and three win championships.

DG: That’s amazing, I feel like that’s a really important point and maybe even like lesson in life. I mean that look for, unless you’ve got these insane skills to be like one of the greats when it comes to a scoring machine, or I don’t know, a quarterback in the NFL, like there might be some jobs where just hard work and attention to detail can make you successful.

MC: You know, and that kind of goes back with my uncle. My uncle worked at Vons supermarket and…

DG: Big chain here in LA.

MC: Yeah, in LA Vons supermarket. All three of my uncles worked there, but he was the oldest, and he quit playing baseball when he was 16. He was a pretty good baseball player. Actually, he was, as he got older, he could have played in the Negro League. But he had to work because my grandmother had 10 kids, so everybody had to kind of chip in.

DG: Big family.

MC: So, but the things that I did, the preparation, he had to do that, that wanting to do it by, you know, yeah, I wanna play baseball, but I gotta do what’s most important for my family. And then I gotta go to work, be on time, and work until, and do all the things that it takes to be the best worker there. He’s in the meat produce, so he was over that, and he became like one of the guys that kind of coordinated all that at Vons for a while. So everything that I put into being that good defensive player, I learned that from him being that good worker and going to work every single day

DG: Mm-hmm. I love that and being there for your family, too. I mean, if you consider the team your family

MC: Yeah, and you know, that’s kind of what we were about once we started grooming and, you know, being with the Los Angeles Lakers in 1980 and all the pieces kind of falling together. We started playing basketball, and what we wanted to do at that time was just become a good, solid basketball team. And through the whole…

DG: I feel like you achieved that. I feel you achieved that in a little more probably.

MC: Yeah, but the funny part about it is that’s all we were doing is playing. And then, you know, the next thing we knew, David, we looked up, and we’re playing for the Western Conference Championship against us. The great Seattle Supersonic team, Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma, them guys had just won the championship before. And here we are playing in a championship game against them, and we ended up winning that series. So now we’re playing for a championship. That’s when the whole concept of TEAM, Together Everyone Achieves More, really started paying off and digging into us, and we bought into it.

DG: Bought into it, yeah, that is an understatement. With Michael Cooper and Magic Johnson in tow, the Lakers went on a major run in the 80s. They won championships in 1980 and ’82 with Michael’s defensive skills key to those victories. By 1984, Michael had been on the team for almost six years. The Lakers were back in the championship, set to face off against the Boston Celtics, a team equipped with a powerhouse named Larry Bird.

Some of your biggest moments were those insane series against the Boston Celtics. I feel like you’ve probably been asked this question before, but what was it like to defend Larry Bird?

MC: Well, Larry was one of the best. And, the reason I say that, because I played against George Gervin, Iceman, I can finger roll. I played against a young Michael Jordan, ’84, ’85 Michael that was just all about athleticism, tongue wagging, Michael, as well as Kobe, and the great ones got better as they got older. But I’m playing against Michael when he could really get up in the air, playing against a man named Andrew Toney. People forget about this kid. That kid could flat out play from Southwest Louisiana, 6’4″, strong. But the one thing that those players always did that Larry didn’t do is when they had the ball, and they pass it to their teammate, they would kind of like stand and watch, or they would bend over and kind of grab your shorts. And Larry didn’t do that. When Larry passed the ball, he was gonna go get off into a rebound. He was gonna set a back pick. He was going to do something to affect that play.

DG: Even after he passed it off?

MC: Even after we passed the ball. So you had to pay attention to him the whole time. So when he’s moving, I’m moving. When the other guys pass the ball, I can kind of like, okay, Jordan over here. I know he’s not moving too much. He might move a little bit there, but Larry was going to do something. So that’s why I say he was the hardest player I’ve ever had to guard because of his insane ability to make something happen on the offensive end, even when he didn’t have the basketball.

DG: Is there an off-court moment that stands out in your mind from those series against the Celtics that you could share?

\\\[MUSIC\\\]

MC: The main one for me would be in 1984, we were playing the Celtics, and we lost to them. Now this is after the game. We go into the locker room, we get our tongue lashing from Coach Riley and all of that, and we’re kind of like, we actually blew that series because we were up, and we had some great games that we played at Boston Garden and Magic, and I am in the shower, and we cut the shower off, and he’s like, “Coop.” And I said, “You all right?” And we’d just sit down right there. And he goes, “Coop, we’ll never, ever feel like this again. Never.” And we just talked about it, you know, and the reporters were waiting for him to come in there, waiting for us to come in and finish talking. And the moment that we shared there was like a really a building moment for friendships because Magic and I really locked in then because we knew what we wanted to do as far as win championships. And he was a catalyst to all that. But he also taught me the mindset of that, some players have a tendency to take a loss, you’ll deal with it for a minute, then let it go and move on to the next one. No, it wasn’t about that. This had to permeate into us. We had to feel this all the way to our bones in order to come back, and which we did, the next year, to win the championship. And I really believe that moment there, off the court, although it was in the shower, it was a moment that was supposed to happen. And do I wish other players were in there? Yes, but that was a special moment for Magic and I because it was almost kind of like, “Coop, I’ma lead the team, and you gotta be the leader on the defensive end.” And I think that’s what was developed there because we started pushing one another, and then as we got into practice, we started pushin’ people. You know, that’s where I became a better shooter because most of the time, people, I was gettin’ the ball, soon as I get the ball, people would back off of me. Magic be like, and Riles, “Coop, you gotta shoot, you got to shoot.” That summer, I went out and was shooting. Magic, we just went and shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. I became in 1985, I became a better shooter. If Magic was lacking on defense, “E, get your ass back on defense, man.” “You’re right, Coop, you’re right.” So that was a moment that kind of like, we were able to identify who we were on the team and what our role was about on the team, and it took that loss and that moment in the shower for that to happen for Magic and I.

DG: Wasn’t there one? There was one game, I think it was in the finals, where you lit it up behind the arc, right? Like it, didn’t you hit like six threes and set the record for?

MC: Yeah. I was the first one to score six three-pointers in a championship game.

DG: That must be crazy, as someone known for defense.

MC: You’ve got to remember that one three-point line way back there. Now it’s a high school jump shot now, but back then, man, you wasn’t shooting the jump shot from back there.

DG: Shooting from Mars,

More from Michael Cooper is coming up next, right here on Sports in America.

MIDROLL

DG: This is Sports in America, and let’s get right back into our conversation with LA Lakers legend Michael Cooper.

Developing these skills to become a well-rounded player, being able to gracefully steal the ball in midair and then pivot and race to land a jump shot that earned Michael a huge reputation on his team.

James Worthy, your longtime teammate, described you as the heartbeat of the team. What does that mean to you?

MC: That means so much to me that my teammates saw me in that aspect because I think when you’re around a lot of superstar players and that’s the one thing that I was very fortunate and blessed to be around to see Jamal Wilkes, Magic, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and himself become legendary players and to say my little role on the team was that significant that I was able to push him to become great and this was really special. I just, I had a passion to win, and I wanted to win, and I was going to do everything I could, but you have to win by scoring the basketball. And I was surrounded by a lot of scorers. So I wasn’t going to be denied for my little role. I was gonna push those guys to be a bigger role and to encourage them. And that was my role every day. Come in, I always tried to be number one in all the running things. I tried to be number one in everything I did with the Los Angeles Lakers, being on time, try to rebound as much as I could, all those things I tried to do. So I was always pushing guys and letting them know, talking, telling them if they you know, it’s called constructive criticism You know, if you can take that then you can be part of a championship team If you can’t take your teammate getting on top of you. Then you’re not gonna be that good of a player, and your team is not gonna be that good of a championship team. So, that’s the role I try to provide for our team, and that’s just who I was. I’m a fiery guy, you know, hey, if I’m playing defense, you better damn well get out and play some defense. “Coop, you gotta shoot the ball?” “Yeah, you’re right. Okay, okay, all right, I’m gonna shoot it.” So it was just a give and take on our team. And for Worthy to say that that’s who I was, that means a lot.

DG: Why do you call your role Little? I mean, you won championships, you’re in the Hall of Fame. Why do you still say my little role?

MC: Well, I say little in the sense of where people, when you look at championship teams, you look at a guy scoring 20, 20 plus points a game, you look at a guy getting 18 rebounds a game. All I was trying to do was stop them other people from doing it. So, to me, I don’t say it was insignificant. My role was not that at all, but just compared to the people I was around.

DG: It’s less flashy, it sounds like

MC: And yeah, exactly. It’s that.

DG: But they couldn’t be doing that without you doing the digging. (Laughs)

It’s true. Michael’s relentless digging on defense was key to multiple Lakers championship runs in the 80s. He was a cornerstone of what became known as the Showtime Lakers, an era of fast freewheeling play and a whole lot of winning in Los Angeles basketball history. But that doesn’t mean he always valued himself as much as his team did.

I want to read you one other thing that I read in the LA Times. They said that “Cooper’s insecurity was never more than a missed jump shot below the surface.” Is that fair? I know you’ve been vulnerable and open about this, but how does that land with you?

MC: I mean, that’s who I was, and I think that’s what kept me in the league. You know, like I said, I was so insecure that I wouldn’t be drafted that I didn’t even go watch the draft because it was like, okay, if I didn’t get drafted, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings because I didn’t get to see it. So that’s, I honestly believe that’s why I was at the gym playing. But you know what, once I got with the Los Angeles Lakers and we won that first championship, I did not ever, ever want to leave that organization. So every year — and this is a good thing too, which I thought was a bad thing. Every year when trades time around, people are always asking, “Hey, what are you guys gonna do with Cooper?” “He’s a sixth man.” “We can bring him over here to the Sixers or to Atlanta, and he could start here and become a star player.” And I understand that a player cannot control, not necessarily at that time control if you got traded or not, because it’s a business. And I just would dread trade day, because I mean, when you hear about trade talks, I don’t know, oh my God, I’m gonna be traded. And I would always hype myself up, because if it happened, then I wouldn’t be too surprised or too hurt. “I’d go, okay, they’re gonna trade me, they’re going to trade me.” And I always remember, I used to go to Jerry West, and you know, a friend of mine, which is Magic’s best friend, which is Lon Rose, and Lon and I came in together, and Lon had a little privy to what was going on up in the offices. I was like, “Lon, are they gonna trade me?”

DG: Go find out. Can you do some digging?

MC: So my insecurities kind of like, okay, you know what? I’m going to play as hard as I can. I did everything even better at that point in time during the season so that they wouldn’t trade me, and I was very fortunate and lucky to play my 12 years with the Lakers.

DG: Michael’s insecurity was a constant presence, both on and off the court. To get past it, he had to develop his own guiding mantras.

MC: I’ve always lived by these things I call “Coops 5Ds.” They are determination, dedication, desire, discipline, and decision-making.

DG: No defense? That would have been the D that I would have put next to your name first, but that’s interesting. Yeah.

MC: Well, that’s a sixth one. But those five D’s are something that I’ve always lived by. And I talk a lot about that in the book about how those helped me because as a young player, I used to be real skinny. And everybody used to tell me, I couldn’t do this. I couldn’t do that. Well, I’m gonna be determined. I’ma have dedication. I’m going to show them. I’m a make the decision. So I’ve lived by those five Ds. And at that point in time is that trade and all of that. I had to make the decision to be a tough guy. Come on, you got to just, it’s not going to happen. And then, with the will of everything, the way things went. I’m glad it didn’t, and I had a great career, but yeah, those are things that people can apply to every aspect of your life, your religious life, your everyday life, academic life, and just being a dad. I still use those five D’s to this day.

DG: Those five D’s helped Michael cope with his own stubborn insecurity on the court. At its core, his anxiety seemed to come from a place of fear, a fear that he might lose the life and the basketball career that he had built for himself to this point.

[MUSIC]

DG: Where do you think the insecurity came from? Like, did you root it to your childhood?

MC: No, I think winning.

DG: Winning?

MC: Once I won and I won here, I didn’t want to be anywhere else. And I think that’s a good question. I never was an insecure child growing up. I mean, other than people telling me I was always skinny, that was a big thing to me. “Man, look how skinny you are.” I just couldn’t gain weight. I just, I would eat everything and but my metabolism was so high because all I did is when I eat, I’d go outside and run it all off. That is a good question. I just but I just think that I just wanted to be with the Los Angeles Lakers. That was the only organization I wanted to play for because things had went so well. Dr. Buss is the best owner. Things were going around. It was in my hometown. My family was here. You know, I didn’t have to go far. I had my own rooting section. So that, yeah, insecurity. Yeah, I just think it came with winning. And when you win something, you just want it to keep going. And that’s why when I left at the end of my 12 years, Dr. Buss gave me an option. He said, “Coop, we can cut you, or you can retire. What do you want to do?” And I chose to retire because I couldn’t see myself, and I had four great offers in ’91 to go play for San Antonio and three other teams. I mean, I was going there to be a starter. And I just couldn’t see myself going there and playing and then coming back to the forum and tearing down everything that you had built up there. So that’s why I just retired. I went overseas and played a year, and I came back, and Dr. Buss had an offer for me to go into the front office.

DG: Wow. So it, I mean, the lesson I’m hearing from you is like, sometimes when things feel almost too perfect, like too good to be true, like you’re playing with this team you love and the city you love and a franchise you love and you’re winning championships, it’s like that breeds insecurity because you’re like, I don’t want this to end, but it almost like has to at some point.

MC: Exactly, you hit it right on the head. Why does this dream have to end? You know, you go to bed at night, and you’re dreaming all the dreams. They’re really good. It’s like, okay, I don’t want to wake up because if I wake up, then obviously it’s gonna be gone. I didn’t want to lose any of that.

DG: How should we think about, and I know you’ve taught a lot of young people basketball, how should we, as athletes and humans, think about fear and insecurity differently?

MC: Fear, you can always overcome that. You can always overcome fear, because again, it’s just for that moment. I’m fearful of the way this tastes. I’m fearful of getting up there and making a free throw. I think that’s something that you can just go out and work in practice, and you can overcome that, but insecurities have to be dealt with, to me as a, this is what I feel, as a group. Your insecurities, especially when you’re working within the team concept, there are people that have gone through things that you have, and they can help you in that aspect of things. You can go to your parents a little bit, but fear is something you have to deal with; I think you have to deal with it alone. And yeah, I never feared anything. And insecurity, I got that through winning. I mean, I settled that through the winning. That’s a good question, David. You’re making me think more than I want to.

DG: Yeah. (Laughs) That’s my job. That’s my job, right? As long as I’m not pushing too hard. Yeah, I just, it amazes me, you know, because it— you’re just so honest and vulnerable about the moments when you thought that you could, you know, lose this whole thing, this journey with the Lakers, and that you constantly lived in a place of it could all end tomorrow. And I just, you know, having talked to so many athletes, it’s such a different mindset than some other people.

MC: But you know what, I’ll say this, and I’m a very religious person. My grandmother was very religious. And I’ve always felt my religion and the Lord is my higher power, Jesus Christ, that as long as I believed in Him, everything was gonna be all right. And I was able to overcome a lot of those things.

[MUSIC]

DG: Michael really couldn’t see himself playing for any other team than the Los Angeles Lakers, but coaching, that’s another story. He’s helped lead teams from the high school level all the way to the pros in men’s and women’s basketball. He helped bring the WNBA’s Los Angeles Sparks to two championships, and recently, he became the head men’s basketball coach at Cal State LA.

Let me ask you, the last question I have. When you spent time coaching young people, you wanted to show them what you could achieve through sports. What is that?

MC: A lot of the things they learn through sports, the being on time, to being prepared, to work hard, to touch the lines, all the little things, dot the I’s, cross the T’s, those will be important to you when you finish basketball. Now, if you go on and you make that kind of money, even if you make that money, you’re gonna have to spend it the right way. You have to find the right people to put around you or surround yourself with, but you want those people that have the same values that you have, that you work hard to get to that point. And if you don’t get to that point, then you’ll know what hard work is to be on time at a dealership, to be in time at a corporation, to be on time at Nike. You’re a Nike person up there. Hey, all those things that you work hard for in sports, you can apply that to other aspects of your life.

DG: Michael, really a pleasure talking to you. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. And best of luck with the book.

MC: David, thank you so much, and I appreciate the time I was able to spend with you.

[THEME MUSIC]

DG: Next time, on Sports in America. With the World Cup finally upon us, we’re gonna sit down with the delightful Roger Bennett, who, long before Men in Blazers, was just a kid growing up in Liverpool, watching how the action on the soccer pitch quickly became the talk of the town

ROGER BENNETT: You went because your dad had gone and his dad had gone, and that’s the way it was. It was a great purveyor of memory and community and connection and pride, local pride to be honest.

DG: Today, Roger is one of the most influential voices in sports, helping a generation of American fans understand why soccer matters.

RB: I don’t feel things. It’s why I watch football. It actually allows me to feel things in real life that I think normal people feel all the time, like happiness and sadness and loss and victory and connection.

DG: As the US prepares to host this global event, Rog shares his favorite moments from World Cups past and the ways soccer tournaments can help unite a divided world.

RB: There’s a cliche that war stops when the World Cup kicks off. It’s a cliche because it’s actually true, and please God it will be true again. But the sense that the whole world is watching together. that heroes are made, that’s not changed.

DG: That’s next time, on Sports in America.

This is Sports in America. I’m your host, David Greene.

Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa.

Our engineers are Mike Villers and Charlie Kaier. Our theme music is composed by Emma Munger. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling.

Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeartRadio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts.

And we also want to hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That’s sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks everybody, and we’ll see you next time for Sports in America.

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Host: David Greene
Executive Producers: Joan Isabella, Tom Grahsler
Senior Producer: Michael Olcott
Producer: Michaela Winberg
Associate Producer: Bibiana Correa
Talent Booker: Britt Kahn
Engineers: Mike Villers, Charlie Kaier
Tile Art: Bea Walling
Theme Song: Emma Munger
Sports in America is a production of WHYY, distributed by PRX, and part of the NPR podcast network.

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