Governor Josh Shapiro: “You Can’t BS Your Way Through Sports”

[THEME MUSIC]

DAVID GREENE, HOST: Just outside Lincoln Financial Field, or sorry, Philadelphia Stadium, as FIFA would prefer us call it, on a stormy, sweltering day at the World Cup, it felt like all eyes were on South Philly. Mobs of fans from all corners of the globe were making their way into the stadium, surrounded by volunteers and security. My home state is in the middle of a summer unlike any it’s seen before. Along with the World Cup, Pennsylvania hosted the NFL Draft this year, it’s welcoming the MLB All-Star game, and playing a central role in America’s 250th birthday celebration, the semi-quincentennial. Which means that while Josh Shapiro may be one of the country’s most talked-about governors and a person whose name inevitably comes up whenever people start speculating about 2028, these days he’s more focused on traffic patterns, public safety, and how to help international visitors enjoy their stay. We wanted to talk to Governor Shapiro to understand what it takes to host these massive events. And whether they can possibly deliver all they promised to the local community.

This was kind of a crazy thing to attempt, you know, having a serious conversation with the governor over raucous fans at a soccer match, to say nothing of the thunderstorms, but we thought it was just crazy enough to work. Now, we should say Josh Shapiro was a Philly sports fan long before entering politics. It’s an identity that he clings to when he calls occasionally into sports radio and tries to remain just a guy. “It’s Josh from Juniata calling,” he says. Just someone sitting three stools down at McGlinchey’s, a guy who instinctively understands why sports matter to people far beyond what happens on the field or the pitch. So when we sat down together outside the Linc, we talked about the challenge of hosting one of the biggest sporting events on Earth, the strange overlap between politics and sports. The rise of sports gambling on kids’ phones, and whether sports really do bring us together the way we always say they do. It’s a conversation about PA’s sports summer, but also about fandom, community, and what it means to welcome the world at a moment when America feels deeply divided. At first, the fans there did not exactly seem to understand what they were seeing on stage.

Good afternoon, everybody. I am inviting you to take a brief break from football and the World Cup to come listen to a conversation that will involve football and the World Cup. My name is David Greene. I host a brand-new show called Sports in America. I hope you all check it out. There’s a QR code like above my head to my right. It’s a new show, national show, and podcast that is produced here in Philly by WHYY. Airs nationally, and you can check out the podcast, and we have conversations about sports and life, like the one I’m about to have with the person sitting to my left, who is one of the biggest sports fans in the city of Philadelphia and the state of Pennsylvania, also happens to be the governor of the state of Pennsylvania, Governor Josh Shapiro.

JOSH SHAPIRO: Great to be with you. What’s up, Philly?

[CROWD CHEERING]

DG: Governor, thanks for doing this.

JS: Great to be with you, let’s talk some soccer.

DG: Let’s talk some soccer. On a day like this, do you kind of wish that you could not be governor and just be Josh from Juniata?

JS: Josh from Juniata, that’s my WIP name when I call into sports radio, but no, I mean I’m just a huge sports fan, as I know everybody else is here, and this is just an epic event that we’re hosting here in Philly. We couldn’t be more pumped and to see everybody here. I just came from Lemon Hill, where we’ve got the fan fest. People are just out. They’re joyful. It’s extraordinary.

DG: You— we’re gonna talk about your fandom in a few minutes. I mean, your general sports fandom, but how big a soccer guy have you been through your life? Is this a sort of a World Cup-focused thing, or have you always loved this sport?

JS: To be honest, look, I like the Union, but I’m more of like a World Cup, a little bit of a Johnny-come-lately when it comes to soccer every four years, but when I get into it, I’m into it. It’s not like I am with the Phils and the Birds and the Sixers and the Flyers, kind of following it every day.

DG: Can we hear it for Messi, who just scored two goals…

JS: Unbelievable.

DG: In that match and set the record for career goals in a World Cup? That was extraordinary.

[CROWD BOOING]

JS: Apparently, we have some people who don’t like Messi here.

DG: Yeah, but what an, I mean, extraordinary….

JS: Unbelievable.

DG: …moment.

JS: I mean, he, to me, is like MJ. He’s like Michael Jordan. He’s not just the best in the game. He is playing at a different level, right? He’s just doing things at a difference level. Look, I think Mbappe, who we’re gonna see in an hour or so, he’s an extraordinary player. I don’t know that he’s next level the way Messi is. I think Messi’s the GOAT, just like MJ is. And I’ll fight anybody on that who thinks it’s LeBron, by the way.

DG: So let’s talk about the World Cup. You obviously as governor, have been very involved in bringing and having this tournament in Philadelphia. Why was it so important for Philadelphia to be one of the host cities?

JS: Look, we are blessed to live in the greatest country on the face of the earth. And for those of you who live here in the Philly area or in Pennsylvania, we are blessed to live in the place where it all began. And so when we were focused on how to celebrate USA 250, certainly there had to be a whole lot of history, but there had to be bunch of opportunities for us to gather as a community. So we had the NFL draft out in Pittsburgh, where we set a record for attendance. We had March Madness here in Philly. We had the PGA Championship out in Delco. We’ve got the World Cup now. We’ve MLB All-Star coming about two weeks or so after the quarterfinals here. And then we just announced, I hope you all heard, we got UFC 330 coming right here to Xfinity Mobile Arena.

DG: Wow, you got even more.

JS: And I just think, David, sports is an opportunity to bring people together who have different views on politics, different views on the world, but who come together. And they don’t give a damn who you voted for; they’re just there to cheer on their team. I think there’s something really special about sports to be able to do that. So we wanted sports to be an important part of celebrating USA 250.

DG: There’s been a lot of talk back and forth about what the actual economic impact will be for cities like Philly, like Los Angeles, like Seattle, like Boston. You know, Rahm Emanuel, when he was thinking about bringing the World Cup to Chicago, said this, you know, well-known thing now. “I don’t know what any other mayor or governor is doing, but do you expect me to treat the Chicago taxpayers as the dumb money at the table?” He’s worried that this was gonna be more of a disadvantage to cities, and the taxpayers would feel these hidden costs. If you think he’s wrong, tell me why.

JS: I mean, look, I didn’t see Rahm’s comments, so I can’t react to him, but take a look at this place. Take a look in our streets. Take a look at our restaurants and our bars. They are packed. We think the World Cup is going to generate $770 million of economic impact. It’s thousands of jobs. But beyond that, it’s all of you. It’s folks hanging out. It’s people being together. It’s people coming to Philly and Pennsylvania for the first time, falling in love with it, and coming back over and over and over again. Hospitality and tourism is a huge part of our economy in Pennsylvania. Over $80 billion of economic impact, 500,000 Pennsylvanians work in hospitality and tourism, and this has proven to be a huge success.

DG: So you’re banking on this having a snowball effect in future years?

JS: I think it’s both things. I think its the economic impact today, and I think is the dollars that we’re gonna see in future years as people come back. But make no mistake, this is a huge win for this commonwealth, and I’ll just share with you, we appropriated about $60 million for all of the events in 2026. We’re talking NFL draft, Major League Baseball All-Star Game, World Cup, and the dollars we’re investing are for infrastructure, public safety, things like that. I think we’re getting a huge ROI, a huge return on investment here.

DG: How much of it is, and I’m gonna use this term, putting Philadelphia on the map? Because this came up in some of the conversations with some of those host city committees in Los Angeles negotiating some of these deals with FIFA. The head of the LA Sports Commission told FIFA, like, what are we getting out of this? And FIFA’s response was, you’re putting your city on the mat. Does Philadelphia need to be put on the map?

JS: I mean, I don’t think we need to be put on the map. Y’all pretty proud of being from Philadelphia. What do you say? Yeah, I think we’re on the map. I think it’s about giving Pennsylvanians, giving visitors the opportunity to do some extraordinary, once-in-a-lifetime stuff. Look, I’ve been a Philly sports fan my entire life. For those of you who are fans, you have never seen all of these events stacked up one after another in your lifetime. You will never see it again. We worked hard to deliver that. That’s great for people who live here, it’s great for visitors, it’s for our economy. I think we’re on the map. I think it’s about making sure that here in this year, where we’re celebrating the greatest country on the face of the earth, we’re doing it Philly style with great sports and great family and togetherness.

DG: Do you understand why some people are sort of waiting to see whether this was a positive or negative for our country, for our state, for these cities that are hosting?

JS: There’s always the naysayers out there. There’s the people that question; that’s fine. We’re seeing a great ROI. We’re seeing a ton of excitement. And by the way, let’s give a shout-out. We should all put our hands together for law enforcement at every level for keeping us safe. They’re doing an extraordinary job. The Pennsylvania State Police, the Philly Police, federal law enforcement, everybody working together to make sure it’s a safe time. We appreciate them.

DG: I want to get to your fandom. Your earliest Philly sports memory growing up here?

JS: I think the one that first impacted me were the ’83 Sixers, right? Dr. J with the cradle rock dunk over LA, Moses Malone saying we’re gonna win in “fo fo fo.” I mean, to me, that was the first team that I fell in love with. I followed every second of every game. I called into sports radio when I was lucky enough to get through to vent or share my opinion, and they were just an extraordinary team. And then I think, going through the lean years after that, particularly growing up as an adult, not having big wins, and then becoming a father, and then all of a sudden our teams were great again. Our teams were winning. The Birds won a Super Bowl, and my kids thought that’s just the way it always was. I had to live through the lean years so my kids could experience this. So I think those ’83 Sixers got me started. We lived through the lean years. And now we’re back with winning teams, really at every level.

DG: What role does sports play in you being a father?

JS: Sports plays an extraordinarily important role in being a dad because it gives me and the kids— I’m blessed with four kids— the opportunity to have those quiet moments to sit together on the couch and watch a game, to actually schedule our hectic lives around a Sixers game or around a Sunday Birds game. I know it may be hard for some folks out here to understand the crazy life that we lead, and I am blessed to lead it on your behalf as governor, but when we get those couple of hours, those three hours of family time, we cherish that. And for us, sports is sort of that moment on the calendar, that place on the couch we sit, where we can reconnect as a family and enjoy each other’s company.

DG: Has there ever been a moment where you’ve had to, because of circumstances, turn off the sports fan and become the governor, like in a split second?

JS: I mean, look, getting ready for the NFL Draft in Pittsburgh was a great example of that. I wanted to be the fan, focus on who’s going to pick who, and what the intrigue was about football. But I knew I had a job to do on public safety, on making sure the infrastructure was built out, making sure that everybody had a safe time and a wonderful experience. Similar dynamic with the World Cup and with our planning for MLB All-Star. You got to appreciate what fans feel. But I got a job to do as governor to make sure everybody has a safe and enjoyable time. And so it’s a little hard for me to sit and enjoy a match or enjoy a game when I’m focused on just making sure everybody’s having a safe time. People get to and from the venue safely and enjoy the time with their kids. I find joy in watching everybody else get a lot of pleasure out of this.

DG: As someone who grew up mostly in Pittsburgh, I was born in Philadelphia, die-hard 76ers fan my whole life because my mom was, but we moved to Pittsburgh when I was five years old. Now I’m all Steelers, Penguins, and Pirates. You obviously need votes in Western Pennsylvania to win re-election as governor. How do you navigate your Bird’s obsession when you’re in places like Pittsburgh and Washington, and the West?

JS: Well, here’s what I’d say. I don’t think you can BS your way through sports. I think you’ve got to be authentic and real. And I’m a Philly sports fan. Now, it doesn’t mean I can’t respect the hell out of the city of champions in Pittsburgh. I mean, they got six rings, the Steelers do. The Penguins are an extraordinary franchise. By the way, even the Pirates are starting to play better…

DG: Starting, starting.

JS: Which is nice to see, but even when I’m out in Pittsburgh, I don’t BS about sports. You got a root for the teams you rooted for growing up, and I’m honest about that

[MUSIC]

DG: I want to talk a little bit about the intersection of politics and sports that we’ve seen in this World Cup. So much talk leading up to this moment that our politics in our country were going to impact us hosting this mega event. What’s been your read so far? Has politics been too intertwined? Have we pushed it aside too much and not used it as a moment to reflect on who we are? What have you thought of this relationship so far?

JS: I think it’s been really beautiful. You go talk to people in the stands who are here cheering for their team. They don’t care who you voted for. They don’t really care what your politics are. They’re just here to watch world-class soccer. And even if they’re not a huge soccer fan, they’re here to be part of this experience. I’ll also share with you, I was over at Lemon Hill, and for those of you who have not been to Lemon Hill, go check it out; it’s amazing. The number of people from foreign countries who came over to me to thank me for welcoming them to Philly, to Pittsburgh, to Pennsylvania, to tell me how kind everybody’s been. And a few people said to me that they were surprised, given, you know, the way our president talks, given some of the run-up to the World Cup, this sort of feeling that we didn’t want foreigners in our country. I think they feel welcome, and I think they see Philadelphia as a welcoming city, and Philadelphia is a place that embraces people from all different walks of life.

DG: Coming up, we’re gonna have more from our conversation with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro.

MIDROLL

DG: Welcome back to Sports in America, and let’s get back to our conversation with Pennsylvania’s Governor Josh Shapiro that was recorded live outside the World Cup.

I want to, because I have both my sports fan hat on and my journalist hat on, I want to ask you about a moment that has really stuck with me during this World Cup in Los Angeles, which is my home city, at a game at SoFi between Iran and New Zealand. There was a fan in the stands who proudly had an Israeli flag. Security came up to him and confiscated the flag, and said they were doing it for his safety. And he pointed out that there were other flags in the stands at SoFi, including a Palestinian flag that he saw. He didn’t understand why, you know, they were taking his flag. And he said that he was experiencing that as anti-Semitism. This whole kind of question of how to keep a certain segment of our society safe without singling them out is something that’s obviously very sensitive for American Jews and all Jews. Was that moment where they were trying to keep him safe or was it anti-semitism as he said?

JS: It’s hard for me to comment. I didn’t see what happened. And I think it is important that people be able to demonstrate the pride in their country, the pride and their feelings or affinity toward a club or toward a country. And I think that should be encouraged, not discouraged. I can’t really comment on what happened at SoFi. I didn’t see it. I don’t know the circumstances around it. But I think what I’ve seen of people walking down the streets wearing different jerseys, being draped in different flags, is pride in their country, proud of who they are, and I think we want to find ways to embrace that and protect that.

DG: How are you and your family doing a little more than a year on now since the attack on the governor’s mansion, you know, as Passover was just getting started? I mean, a guy came in and attacked the mansion when you and you and your family were sleeping upstairs.

JS: First off, thank you for asking. We’re doing well, and we’re doing well, thankfully, due to the prayers of a lot of people here and all across Pennsylvania, people from all different walks of life, all different religions, showing a unified faith and lifting us up and strengthening us. I’ll just tell you, I’m not deterred in my work. I’m not afraid to do this work. I’m proud to do work. It’s been challenging as a dad to know that doing this job that you love put your kids’ lives at risk, put your wife’s life at risk. And so we’ve had a lot of family conversations about that. We’ve worked through it. But I will tell you that I’m more determined than ever before to do this work. I’m not gonna back down from the bad guys.

DG: Has it made you and your wife think differently about public service and the risks that come with it?

JS: You know, we thought about it when I decided to run for re-election. I’m running for re-election now as governor of Pennsylvania. And we had a family meeting. We talked about was this the life that we were willing to commit ourselves to, even with these challenges, even with the obvious risks? And everybody voted the same, Lori, the four kids, and I that…

DG: You actually have, like, hands raised in the…

JS: I mean, we had a conversation about it.

DG: Yeah.

JS: No one was deterred. No one wanted to let the bad guys win. And no one was going to stand down in the face of the rising political violence. I think it requires each of us to come together to resoundingly speak out against political violence, no matter who it’s against and no matter what ideology the person engaging in it is from. There’s no place in our politics, no place in our society for political violence. But I will tell you, my family and I will not be deterred by it.

DG: You’re obviously thinking about, you know, you’re focused on reelection right now. You’ve been focused on some really important congressional races in the state of Pennsylvania. You’re, obviously, also in the conversation for 2028. I wonder, you know, other people in that conversation have had more time than you to get to some of these early states, years ahead of time. Do you worry that you’re kind of behind in the game because of what you need to focus on here at home?

JS: First off, I don’t think about 2028 at all. I think about serving the people of Pennsylvania every single day. I think running for reelection and continuing to do a good job for the people of Pennsylvania. And that’s all I’m focused on. I think for people out there today who are frustrated by what they’re seeing in Washington, we’ve got an opportunity to show up and vote this November and send a clear message.

DG: You don’t think that a big open arena with a bunch of raucous soccer fans is the place where you want to take it a step further on 2028.

JS: I think all we want to talk about here is soccer and sports, not politics.

DG: Well, let’s talk more about sports. What is the most Philly fan thing that you’ve ever done in your life?

JS: I will tell you, the Eagles invited Lori and I to ride in the parade with them down Broad Street, which I realized no one here showed up to the parade to see me or my wife in it.

DG: I mean, there might’ve been a few.

JS: But it was one of the most extraordinary experiences. Just seeing folks along Broad Street, 20, 30, 40 people deep, over a million people show up, and it was pure, pure joy. Now, you had to be careful when folks were firing cans of Bud Light at you. You had to be careful not to get hit by them. Howie took one right in the forehead, as some people remember. But I will tell you that it was maybe the most joyful I have ever seen this city and it was a thrill to be a part of it.

DG: You know, I know both these cities really well. Like, as I said, I’ve been a Sixers fan my whole life. I love Philly. I just spent time hating the Flyers because they beat my Penguins. I spent time being devastated that there were so many Knicks fans in our arena. I spent time hating on the Knicks during this whole run because I’m a Sixers fan through and through. I also, it’s funny, when it comes to hockey, we hate each other, and I think there’s no one who would dispute that, but. Some of the other sports, I think there’s like a, there’s a camaraderie, like, you know, two siblings from different parts of the state. How would you describe sort of the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia dichotomy to people listening who have no idea what that’s like in Pennsylvania?

JS: I think there’s mutual respect. There’s not a lot of hate. There is hate between the Penguins and the Flyers. I caught some of that in this first series where I picked the Flyers.

[CROWD DOING EAGLES CHANT]

JS: There you go.

DG: I asked for that.

JS: But I would say there’s not a lot of hate between the Steelers and the Birds.

DG: No.

JS: There is hate between the Penguins and the Flyers. Not a lot of hate between Pirates and the Phils. I think there’s a respect. I think that there’s an appreciation for each city.

DG: You know, I think about kids growing up in Pennsylvania right now, and getting into loving these sports teams with their parents. I’m sometimes curious about what sports gambling is doing to kind of the fandom experience. I look at kids now and watching their parents and watching the Super Bowl and sports on TV. And I mean, one after another is like DraftKings. Do you feel like the prevalence of gambling is taking away from, you know, the ability to just be a fan in some pure way?

JS: Well, first off, it’s not for kids, right? You gotta be 21 in order to do it here in Pennsylvania, and we enforce the rules. I would say that in some cases, if you’re legal and eligible to bet, it can connect you with the game in a deeper way. I think in other ways, it can be distracting. One of the things I hate about it is, and this isn’t necessarily gambling, particularly when we’re doing it with our kids, but in fantasy, I find my kids cheering for players like on the Cowboys. And I hate the freaking Cowboys,

DG: That is not allowed; that’s not cool.

JS: Hate the Cowboys, but when the Cowboys player is on their fantasy team, they’re rooting for them so they have a good fantasy week, and I hate that aspect of it. I’m a purist, man. I’m picking the Birds on my fantasy team. I’m staying true as a homer when it comes to that, but I think that can mess with the loyalties a little bit when it comes time for fantasy.

DG: Have we let it go too far, allowing sports gambling? I mean, you know, 10, 15 years ago, we wouldn’t have even contemplated what we’re seeing today. Just such entanglement between the leagues and these companies like DraftKings, and running online betting sites. Feels sort of like a train that has left the station. We’re never gonna get it to roll back.

JS: Yeah, again, I think you’ve got to do it responsibly, and you’ve got to follow the restrictions in the state. You’ve got to be of age, and you’ve got to do it within the regulations. And if folks need help, we invest a lot of resources for those who are addicted, for those who need help. A lot of resources are available to them here in Pennsylvania.

DG: I want to go back to Josh in Juniata. Why do you call a radio station and have a different persona? And what does that tell us about you and the role of sports in your life?

JS: I mean, first off, at this point, they know who I am. I don’t think I’m kidding anybody.

DG: I mean, were you kidding in the beginning, like the first time?

JS: Yeah, the first time, they figured it out real quick, but it’s what I did since I was a little kid. I called into 6.10 WIP as a kid, and it went over to 94.1, then of course 97.5 came along, but I’ve always called in, I’ve always been engaged, I always wanted to vent like a regular fan, and when the teams did something great, I wanted to celebrate that. It’s always just kind of who I was as a kid, how I was raised. The excitement of knowing when you actually got through, and you got to talk to somebody on the other line, little bit easier for me to get through now, but it’s really just something that I grew up loving to do, and I still love doing it.

DG: You mentioned ’83 in the Sixers. Give me another window into young Josh as a sports fan growing up in this part of the world?

JS: I played everything, everything. I loved playing baseball, I was a pitcher, I played hoops in the local league, in high school, played a little bit in college. A lot of sports all the time. It kinda didn’t even matter what it was. If they were playing it in the neighborhood, I wanted to get out and play.

DG: What sport do you wish you were still playing today? That you were playing…

JS: Basketball.

DG: Basketball?

JS: I still play a little bit, but I can’t move the way I used to. See, what I was able to do- I was a short guy, obviously, but I was able to see the game develop, and it slowed down for me when I was playing in high school and a bit in college. And so I was a really effective point guard. I could make the pass exactly where it needed to go, and I could hit the mid-range jump shot. As time has gone on, the game is still slow. I can see it slow. But I’m slow as hell now, and so I can’t keep up. And everybody’s bigger and stronger. And as my kids show, they’re now not shooting the mid-range jump shot anymore. They’re shooting deep threes, thanks to Steph Curry. And so the game is just so much more spread out. It’s just a really different game. So I coached my kids for a while. They’re a little bit older now. I enjoyed coaching. I still shoot around a little bit, play with them a little bit. But I wish I could still get up and down the court more.

DG: I think obviously the New York Knicks were the big story in basketball this past year. But for us, for Sixers fans, I mean, I don’t know about you, the two moments that really stay with me was winning Game Seven against the Celtics. Like I was in tears. But then seeing the arena right here full of Knicks fans, that was really, really painful. There was nothing more painful, I think, as a sports fan to see your home arena stadium taking over.

JS: Yeah, that was awful. I mean, first off, I grew up, my parents taught me to love my neighbor, except for Cowboys fans and Celtics fans. I mean, I grew up with just a visceral hatred of the Celtics, which I have to this day. To beat them in that series, it almost felt like the Sixers were about to get the momentum that Kawhi Leonard sucked away from us in that Game Seven up in Toronto, what was that about four years ago? Five years ago at this point with that shot that bounced around four or five times. And then, of course, we just fell apart against the Knicks. I mean, Knicks are a hell of a team. I hated seeing all those fans in Philly taking over Xfinity Mobile Arena. I don’t ever wanna feel that again. The Sixers have a lot of work to do in this offseason. We gotta get it right, and we gotta come back in a position to compete. We’re not tough enough, we’re not consistent enough, We’re not healthy enough and we’ve got to do a better job of being able to get more 3 and D guys who can do what they need to do come playoff time, the way the Knicks did this year, the way Indiana did last year, the way Miami did the year before and so on and so forth. Those teams that can bring out four or five people off the bench, 3 and D, have an explosive effort and go back on the bench and spell the starters. We need that. We’ve not had it. You think back to that game in Philly where the Knicks closed us out. Who is it? Deuce McBride came out for like 19 straight points or some insane…

DG: Insane.

JS: Number like that. Played good events, went back to the bench. We need guys like that

DG: Someone just yelled from the bar, “We’re never coming back from the Kawhi moment.” It feels like that’s where we are as Sixers fans. We do have to…

JS: We’ve had some bad luck, and we’ve made some bad picks in the draft. Hopefully, this new guy can help us turn it around.

DG: Aaron Rodgers and my Steelers. We’re having a real identity crisis in Pittsburgh right now. I don’t think we really we know who we want to be as a team. Felt like we should have gone back to a young coach. Didn’t. Went to Mike McCarthy. Went to an aging quarterback. Are we in deep trouble? And I know I’m asking an Eagles fan but…

JS: No, no, no. Look, I follow closely. I think McCarthy is a hell of a coach from Western Pennsylvania. I think it’s been a dream of his to coach the Steelers. The Rooneys run an extraordinary organization. I think McCarthy is a good pick. I think it’s debatable whether you go with a young quarterback and have them try and, you know, work through the kinks a little bit or whether you stick with Rodgers. I thought Rodgers looked pretty good last year. Whether you can do that again this year is an open question. I’d like to see a young quarterback be able to back up Rogers and learn from him. He’s obviously an extraordinary pro. Just getting ready for a game is something that any young quarterback should learn from Aaron Rodgers. We’ll see; there’s still time.

DG: You’re getting ready to go watch a match at the Linc. I guess we can’t call it that because it’s a different name.

JS: Philadelphia Stadium.

DG: Philadelphia Stadium, thank you, FIFA.

JS: Everybody here calls it the Linc, by the way.

DG: I mean, it’s hard not to. What is something that fans going in there with you will see either around the stadium, in this match that took months, years to kind of prepare for, that we won’t even realize? Since you’ve been involved in kind of all of this for, you know, such a long time now.

JS: You know, I’m gonna come back to something I said before. The presence of law enforcement to keep people safe without it feeling like they’re on top of you or in your way or making it harder for you to enjoy your experience. We worked incredibly hard, at the state, federal, local level, to make sure we were organized, we were synced up, that fans could have an amazing experience, and that it could be safe. And that’s something that I hope people appreciate. And I hope they don’t see that it’s not apparent to them, and that y’all can just go enjoy the match and not think about it.

DG: And what are you expecting to see in there? France? Iraq?

JS: I mean, look, France is obviously the heavy favorite. But, by the way, how about Côte d’Ivoire? They won the other night here, and they were huge underdogs. And they won, I think, in the 89th minute, if I’m not mistaken. So anything can happen in the World Cup, but it’d be hard to bet against Mbappe and France.

DG: You and I are both wearing U.S. Men’s national team stuff. Are they for real?

[MUSIC]

JS: You know, first time they’ve won two games in the group stage. I want to temper my excitement, but they’re kind of a veteran team. They know what they’re doing. By the way, a bunch of homegrown talent, not just Pulisic, but Trusty is a kid from Delco. Our goalie is from Media, or from Wayne, from Wayne. So you’ve got a lot of homegrown talent here, and these guys are playing loose. They’re playing in front of the home crowd. Let’s see what they do against Turkey Thursday night, but obviously feeling really, really good.

DG: Have you seen these Hershey bars that Hershey produced with Christian Pulisic’s face and signature?

JS: Very, very cool. We’re really proud of him.

DG: I want to get my hands on one. No, I’m really proud of him.

JS: We’re very proud.

DG: Josh from Juniata, also known as the Governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. Enjoy the match. And all of you, check out Sports in America. My only ask is to scan this QR code and check out our podcast and show. Governor, thanks for taking the time, and enjoy the match

JS: Great to be with you. Great to be with you. Thank you for coming here to Philly. Have fun, everybody. Be safe.

DG: Coming up, we’ll hear from journalist Colby Itkowitz, who has covered Josh Shapiro for years, about what sports reveal about his leadership, his politics, and also this moment in Pennsylvania.

MIDROLL

DG: Alright, welcome back to Sports in America, everybody. We were just listening there to a conversation that I had with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro outside a World Cup match recently. I wanna turn to someone who has known Josh Shapiro for many years, covering him as a reporter. It’s my dear friend Colby Itkowitz, who is a journalist, most recently a national political correspondent, and a podcast host at the Washington Post. Colby, I just want to start with I am I’m shocked that he’s not thinking about 2028 at all. Like it’s not even on his radar.

COLBY ITKOWITZ: At all. There’s no there’s no donors, there’s no consultants, kind of gaming out what it would look like for him to run for president in the middle of his second term as governor. Not at all. You’re— I believe that.

DG: Yeah. We’re being sarcastic. We should let people know.

CI: It’s a real politician’s answer, although I think there’s a way you could say it that’s a little bit more believable, like I’m not thinking about it right now” or “I’m focused on governing Pennsylvania”, but to say he’s not thinking about it at all is a stretch.

DG: Yeah. He has he has he has gone so far as to say that he is open to being in the conversation, something like that, which, at least, you know, gets us somewhere.

CI: Yeah, and I think he says things like that; he’s flattered to be considered, like he’s flattered that he’s in the conversation.

DG: Yeah, flattered that other people are coming up with this idea that he has never, never thought about in his entire life.

CI: This crazy idea that he’s never considered, right?

DG: Yeah, exactly. So you I mean one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you as we come out of that interview with him was because you’ve you have known him for a long time and covered him. Like, what were your first dealings with Josh Shapiro? How early in his career? How early in your career?

CI: Yeah. So I met the governor when he was a county commissioner from Montgomery County. So this is now back in. I think I met him in 2012, when I was working for the Morning Call out of Allentown, Pennsylvania, but I was covering national politics for them. And I was introduced to Shapiro as someone who would one day be president and someone that I should know. Like, if you’re covering Pennsylvania politics and you’re covering national politics, this is the person you’re gonna watch. And obviously they were right. And you know, I didn’t cover him much when he was attorney general of Pennsylvania, but I started covering him really closely when he ran for governor in 2022, and I was with the Washington Post, and I spent a lot of time with him on the road. He remembered me from my Allentown days. And you know, Shapiro has always, he’s had a plan, right? He’s been deliberate. He’s taken his time, you know; he could have run for national politics earlier. He could have they wanted him to run for the Senate in 2016, but he turned it down in order to run for attorney general. I think he has methodically planned out his career from being a state rep in Harrisburg to being a county commissioner, attorney general, governor, and then perhaps what comes next.

DG: Perhaps what comes next? But always a sports fan, right? I mean, that part of him is absolutely transparent and authentic. Like, I really did feel like I was talking to a diehard sports fan who, you know, I dare say, because I consider myself a pretty diehard fan who knows more about kind of the X’s and O’s, in the, you know, more than I do. I mean, he’s really into it.

CI: I think much will be written in the next couple of years about Josh Shapiro’s authenticity. But like the one thing you can be sure of that he’s authentic about is his Philadelphia sports fandom. Like, he’s not faking that. I think he even said it to you, like you can’t BS your way through sports talk. You can’t pretend to be a fan. And I think a lot of politicians probably do. Josh Shapiro is a diehard Philadelphia sports fan through and through. You know, you can ask him about any of the teams, and he can run off stats; he can talk about players from decades past. So, you know, we can have a conversation about whether Josh Shapiro is being his true, authentic self when he’s doing interviews, when he’s giving speeches. But in a conversation with you about sports, like that’s real.

DG: Yeah, and it’s interesting. I mean, I’ve been sort of puzzling over why, you know, he and his team were so game to do this. Cool, but also like semi-weird kind of event. Like it was outside the World Cup. It was at this really cool, you know, fan activation right near, you know, the Linc, the big stadium where the World Cup was taking place. You know, there weren’t that many people out there. It wasn’t like he had a big crowd. You could hear him sort of playing to the audience, even though the audience wasn’t that big. Like, I did get the sense that his kind of sports fan mode is something that he and his team want to begin molding. You know, maybe to be a difference maker if he does go down this road in 2028.

CI: Oh, and I don’t think it’s new. I mean, I think he’s been playing to, I mean, and not even playing to. Again, I think it’s genuine and authentic. I can only imagine- and I’ve dealt with his team for years- the opportunity to come and talk on a podcast about sports is much more— I think that’s probably an easier sell to him than getting him on a politics podcast. These are things that he actually enjoys talking about. He wants to come on and talk to you about sports, and I think he, as he did on your show, like he wanted to brag about the fact that they got the World Cup in Philly and what it means for the city and why and the reason why he would push for something like that is, in part, because he is such a huge sports fan.

DG: And it is a strength of people in politics, I feel like. I mean, I remember covering George W. Bush and, like, you know, the fact that he had a lot of roots in baseball. You know, he could authentically go to a baseball stadium and throw out the first pitch. You know, kind of his relationship with sports and bringing baseball back after 9/11, I think, was really relatable. I think Barack Obama and his love of basketball was really authentic.

CI: Yeah.

DG: That this is something that I think has always played a role in politics when you’ve got people who are trying to distinguish themselves and show that authentic side of them.

CI: And it’s and it remains a great unifier in this nation, right? When there’s few things that do unify us, I think our sports fandoms do. It’s not partisan to like the Philadelphia Eagles. And I also, I took note when I was listening to your conversation with him. You know, you asked him a question about Rahm Emanuel, and he is incredibly disciplined and careful about attacking other politicians, particularly by name. But then you bring up the Dallas Cowboys or the Boston Celtics, and he’ll use words like hate, right?

DG: (Laughs) Yeah.

CI: Like, I hate them. Like I was born to hate the Dallas Cowboys. And so, that’s real, and that’s what people want. Like, people can relate to that. They want people to be; they want their politicians to be authentic, to have real reactions to things. And while he might not tell you how he really feels about Rahm Emanuel or Gavin Newsom, the California governor, he can tell you which teams he absolutely loathes.

DG: But I guess that that’s such an interesting thing when it comes to our politics and kind of utilizing an authentic sports fandom like this. Like, you know, I’ve covered, you know, Hillary Clinton, for example. I mean, you know, watched some of the Super Bowl with her…

CI: Yeah.

DG: When she was talking to, you know, sports fans at a bar, but she’s someone who always struggled to kind of show that authentic side of her in a believable way. Like, I do feel like whatever we just listened to, like, and you kind of were picking on picking up on this, like the being really careful and managed when it comes to everything else, but letting just his guard down and being himself when it comes to sports. Like, hell, bring that into everything else if you’re in politics, like bring that true side of yourself…

CI: Absolutely.

DG: Whatever it is, you know, into the arena for voters to see.

CI: I think Hillary Clinton is famously someone who people would say, gosh, if you could just see her behind the scenes, like if you just get to know her when the cameras are off, and Shapiro has a little bit of that too. You know, when you’re just talking to him, and you’re just chatting, and I’ve had many off-the-record conversations with him. I’ve spent a lot of time with him. He’s a really down-to-earth, easy-to-talk-to, bantery type of guy, but he does really button himself up when the interview starts. And I do think that people see through that. And it’s something that, you know, if he does find himself in Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina, you know, he does do the folksy thing, though. Like, he does the “y’all” and “hey folks,” and he’s got that Obama-esque, you know, people say this about him that he takes on like the Obama tenor when he speaks. So he’s trying. He’s trying. (Laughs) But I don’t know. I don’t know if it’ll—we’ll see. We’ll see if it sells. But I think the more he talks about sports, that’s where he becomes the most relatable, I think.

DG: More relatable we can be. We should tell people that you and I both grew up in the same part of Pennsylvania.

CI: We did. That’s right.

DG: Which is Lancaster County, which is kind of divided territory.

CI: Mm-hmm. You and I are divided.

DG: I know it’s closer to Philly, but as you and I are— well, you and I are divided, except when it comes to basketball. We’re both Sixers fans, but then we divide between Pittsburgh and Philly, right?

CI: Yes. I would have been disowned.

DG: Where does most of your fandom lie?

CI: I would say the Eagles, although my dad, my dad probably would’ve said the Phillies for him and for my husband, it’s the Sixers. But, you know, I didn’t really have a choice. When you’re born into a Philadelphia sports family, you know that was our team. And, you know, my dad was the fan. He watched every game. He cried with them; he screamed at the TV. It was on in the background all the time. We couldn’t listen to music in the car. We only could listen to sports radio, Philadelphia sports radio. But something you don’t know, David, is that an even cooler bragging right that I have is that my mom was a professional Philadelphia Eagles cheerleader, so imagine those bragging rights for my dad.

DG: You’ve never told me that!

CI: I know.

DG: In our friendship, that has never come up before. This is extraordinary. This is amazing.

CI: I saved it for this moment. You know they took a handful of the Eaglettes and made them Sixers cheerleaders, too. So she was also a Sixers cheerleader. So you could only imagine for my dad, who was a huge sports fan, to be able to— you know, he bragged about that till the day he died that he married an Eagles cheerleader. Eagles cheerleaders were a little different in 1969 than they are now, but..

DG: That is amazing.

CI: Yeah, so that’s my street cred.

DG: Are there photos of this? I’m hoping the answer is yes.

CI: Oh yeah, there’s photos. Yeah, I mean their outfits back then, you know, they were like little turtlenecks and mini dresses. So again, they looked a little bit different than the professional cheerleaders of today. they were a little more chast, but…

DG: How would your mom talk about her legacy as a Philadelphia professional cheerleader?

CI: You know, it’s funny, like, she takes a lot of pride; she always took a lot of pride in how well she knew the game. That like she never wanted to be the type of cheerleader who didn’t understand what was happening on the field. And so I can remember like sitting down with her before a Sunday football game and her really explaining to me like what it means, you know, what each down means. She wanted to make sure that I also was watching the game and understanding the rules of the game and not just kind of a spectator. So yeah, that was kind of her pride was that she and and she knew the players. I mean, maybe not as much on the Eagles ’cause I think the squad was quite big, but for the Sixers, like she got to hang out with the players. This is now the late 60s, so you’d have to tell me who was there. But— and this is before the Linc. This is when they were at, I guess, Franklin Field was where the Eagles played then, and

DG: Oh, pre-Veteran Stadium. Like, we’re we’re going we’re a couple stadiums back.

CI: Yeah, yeah, right. Not the Linc, not the Vet. Pre that. So yeah, this is a long time ago.

DG: That’s amazing.

CI: This is a long time ago. I’ll try to dig up one of those pictures. Next time I’m in Lancaster, I’ll dig up a picture. My mom is an Eagles cheerleader.

DG: I am ready to look through them with you. What would you say is your most important sports memory?

CI: Most important mine personally? So I have a few. The Sixers used to practice, you probably know this, in Lancaster. And they would stay at a hotel that was around the corner from my parents’ house.

DG: At Franklin and Marshall, yeah, across the street from my house actually.

CI: Right. And so then they stayed at a hotel called the Eden Resort Inn, which was about a five-minute drive from my house. And so we would always go. We would sit in the lobby, and we would wait for them to get back from practice. And Charles Barkley walked in once, and you know my dad sent me to go talk to him. I must have been probably my daughter’s age, maybe seven or eight. And I walked down the hallway of the hotel. He was so tall that instead of his hand being on my shoulder, it was on the top of my head.

[MUSIC]

CI: And I asked Charles Barkley if he wanted to come over and play pool with my dad. That my dad had a pool table and if he wanted to come play pool with my dad. He declined, but yeah, well that so, I think that’s like a famous story in my house. I danced with the Philly Phanatic on the dugout when I was five, which my again, like one of my dad’s proudest moments, I think. So yeah, I mean, the Philadelphia sports fandom runs deep. There was something Shapiro said to you about the fact that, you know, people our age didn’t think the Eagles could win a Super Bowl. Like that wasn’t something that had happened in our lifetime. My daughter was two months old when the Eagles won the Super Bowl in 2018. And since then, she’s seen the Eagles go to the Super Bowl two more times and win another time. So she’s very spoiled as an Eagles fan. She has no idea what it’s like to cheer year after year for a losing team.

DG: Well, the day will come. Warn her. Warn her that it never stays great forever. (Laughs)

CI: Well, she’s seen her father be a t a tortured Sixers fan, though, who hasn’t seen a championship since 1983, so I guess she does know a little bit about what it’s like to be a tortured Philadelphia sports fan.

DG: She’s seen both sides.

CI: Yeah, exactly.

DG: Yeah. been talking to my dear friend, journalist Colby Itkowitz. We also heard from the governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. Colby, thank you so much for chatting. I cannot wait to see those photos of your mom.

CI: I’m gonna go find them next time we’re in Lancaster.

DG: Amazing, I’m gonna hold you to that. Thanks, Colby.

CI: Thanks for having me, David.

[MUSIC]

DG: Next time on Sports in America, Daryl Strawberry is an icon, rookie of the year for the Mets, eight consecutive All-Star selections, three World Series titles. In his career, he racked up 335 home runs and a thousand RBIs. If only his legacy were as simple as his stats.

DARRYL STRAWBERRY: One took me to the back of the plane, said, “Welcome, kid, to the Big Leaves.” I’m 21, there was, they introduced me to cocaine. And I thought to myself, man, I have arrived.

DG: When Darryl went to the Mets, he left behind a tough childhood that wasn’t easy for him to release. And that fueled his performance at the plate.

DS: I was gonna crush the baseball because of the beatings. I just knew when I got to the plate, and I faced whoever it may be in situations that when I made contact with this bat, I was going to just hit it as hard as I could, just like my father was hitting me.

DG: When Darryl hit bottom, he sought out something that he hoped could heal him, his faith. Since he retired from Major League Baseball in 2000, he has lived about a million different lives, from a Florida state prison to cancer treatment to the pulpit as a newly minted minister.

DS: Now I became this person that God wanted me to be the whole time. Not what I was gonna accomplish from an athletic standpoint, but what I would accomplish for him from a men’s standpoint.

DG: That’s next time on Sports in America.

[THEME MUSIC]

This is Sports in America, I’m your host, David Greene.

Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler.

Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa.

Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our theme music is composed by Emma Munger. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling.

Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeartRadio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts. And we also wanna hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That’s sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks, everyone, and we will see you next time for Sports in America.

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Host: David Greene
Executive Producers: Joan Isabella, Tom Grahsler
Senior Producer: Michael Olcott
Producer: Michaela Winberg
Associate Producer: Bibiana Correa
Talent Booker: Britt Kahn
Engineers: Mike Villers
Tile Art: Bea Walling
Theme Song: Emma Munger
Sports in America is a production of WHYY, distributed by PRX, and part of the NPR podcast network.

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