With ‘Kramer/Fauci,’ the Philly Fringe opens with a reminder of civic debate circa 1993

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The 2026 Philadelphia Fringe Festival opens with an argument.

“Kramer/Fauci” is a play whose script is a verbatim transcript of a 1993 television call-in show on C-SPAN featuring Anthony Fauci, then the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and writer and AIDS activist Larry Kramer.

Both were deeply entrenched in finding a solution to the AIDS epidemic, which was spreading at an alarming rate, but vehemently disagreed on how to do it.

At one point, Fauci, who normally displays a calm and diplomatic demeanor, took Kramer to task for saying the U.S. government’s lackluster investment in HIV and AIDS research had attracted subpar talent.

“Larry, I have to disagree with you on that,” Fauci said. “You can’t say there are a bunch of losers working on HIV and AIDS. It isn’t the case. You know that.”

“I don’t know that, and I’m ashamed of you because what you say in private and what you say in public are two different things,” Kramer shot back. “And that’s what bothers me, that you have to live this double-edged life.”

The hourlong duet of frenemies locked into an intellectual wrestling match over a dire public health crisis is what brought theater artist Daniel Fish back to YouTube over and over to watch the 33-year-old broadcast.

“I was moved by it. I was entertained by it. I was just struck by it,” Fish said. “Every time I went back to listen to it, I just found it really compelling on lots of different levels.”

“Kramer/Fauci” premiered at the New York University Skirball Center in New York City last February. The Philly Fringe will be its second iteration before returning to New York to run at St. Anne’s Warehouse through October.

“I so associate him with the COVID pandemic,” said Fringe Executive Director Nell Bang-Jensen of Fauci. “It was interesting to look back at this dialogue and realize how long he has been a public servant.”

Fauci again became front-page news in July as he faced accusations from senators during a congressional hearing over how he handled the COVID-19 pandemic. He was held in contempt after declining to answer questions, citing his 5th Amendment protection against self incrimination.

A finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and a nominee for an Academy Award, Kramer died at 84 in May 2020.  His death during the pandemic shutdown is what led Fish to discover the old TV broadcast online.

“I saw the original production of ‘The Normal Heart,’” Fish said of Kramer’s 1985 play. “It remains one of the great theater experiences of my lifetime.”

In the C-SPAN debate, Fish saw naturally occurring theatrical elements. The two antagonists were divided by technical problems — Fauci was in the studio with the moderator, while Kramer was remote with a bad earpiece — though the language they used with each other suggested a certain intimacy. At one point, Kramer referred to Fauci as “Tone,” and when Kramer complained that Fauci had to be complicit with the administrations of Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, Fauci called out, “I love you, Larry.”

Fauci and Kramer sparred many times during the AIDS epidemic. Fish said they both knew they were playing predetermined parts in their public appearances, but those antagonistic roles were fluid enough to reveal an underlying affection for each other.

“One of the sad things about looking at that conversation now is you see two people who are able to have really, at times, opposing points of view and they are able to listen to each other,” he said. “It’s a very different kind of conversation than the conversations that we have now. I think that’s part of the tragedy of it.”

The relationship between Fauci and Kramer existed before the C-SPAN debate — at one point the moderator had to explain to the audience a reference from a previous conversation — and continued long after.

“They were very good friends. Fauci visited Kramer close to the time he died,” Fish said. “You know they still fought.”

“Kramer/Fauci” opens the Fringe Festival on Sept. 8 at FringeArts and runs until Sept. 11.