Philadelphia activists to protest horse-drawn carriages
Friday, April 23rd, 2010
By: Elizabeth Fiedler
efiedler@whyy.org
Philadelphia peace activists are holding a pro-horse rally in Philadelphia tomorrow near 6th and Market Streets in Center City. The protest is blocks from where a car rammed into several horse-drawn carriages Monday.
The Peace Advocacy Network is calling on Councilman Frank DiCicco to end what they call a dangerous and exploitative practice before there's another accident.
Councilman DiCicco says he's not planning on banning the carriages.
He says they're part of the tourism industry and they employ a lot of people.
“I grew up in an era where milkmen delivered milk by way of a horse drawn wagon,” says DiCicco. “It was a way of getting product around. I think horses are built – God made them for certain purposes and I think they were built to be used in the fashion they're used. The Amish people still use horses to plow their fields.”
Brandon Gittelman, the vice president of the Peace Advocacy Network, says without horse drawn carriages, people can tour the city in creative fun ways on the trolley, duck boats or bikes.
“There are other ways for people to entertain themselves and there are other ways to enjoy the city,” says Gittelman. “And, as demonstrated this past Monday at 6th and Race Streets, these horse-drawn carriages do not mix well in traffic. They're really dangerous and essentially accidents waiting to happen.”
But DiCicco says that Monday’s pile-up does not change his view of horse-drawn carriages.
“There was an unfortunate accident,” says DiCicco. “There are accidents that happen every day in the city of Philadelphia. There are pedestrians who are hit by cars and either injured or killed. I don't see anyone out there saying eliminate motor vehicles from the streets of our city also.”
The Duck Boats were an accident waiting to happen. Now we have two deaths from them. How many deaths will it take to get horse carriages out of Philadelphia Center City ? Even a fool knows they are unsafe to ride on
when you have bike lanes, tour bus lanes duck boat lanes all on the same street. Maybe they should be limited to just circling City Hall.
the amish are horrible to animals. they have pupppy mills on their farms, in miserable conditions. after their horses have given a lifetime of service, they sell them at the auction where they go to mexican or canadian slaughterhouses. these people have no consideration for animals.
The Illustrious Potentate has spoken. You can all shut up and go home now. Oh and you sick animal rights activists I want you to know that all those threatening emails you sent me will soon be in the hands of the state police cybercrime unit. Have a nice day!
Your email isn't published here so stop trying for the sympathy.
Your spyware is flawed sweet heart, none the less thank you for stepping forward and claiming responsibility for the sick threats you have made against me and my family. That with everything else the cyber police have will clinch it. Once again thank you Illustrious Potentate! Animal rights activists, maybe you can claim insanity, every court in this nation will believe that. Have a nice day.
yes, that is me. I take full responsibility for the alleged "sick threats made against you and your family." Send the FBI cybercrime squad. I'll be outside waiting with me hands behind my back
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Those are bars. You will be behind them after you go. You will not be missed. But you won't see anymore horse drawn carriages either!
Have a nice day!
I am in Prison. Judith Sine had me arrested. I am allowed ten minutes computer time, so I am using it here.
Too bad you won't be cared for like the horses are. And no computers for cyber criminal.
What do you mean? I get three meals a day and medical care AND I don't have to work! This is a heck of a lot better life than a horse used for carriage rides.
Shhh. Listen! Hear it? That's the sound of the animal rights activist turned cybercriminal Marina working on the chain gang! Music to my ears.
who wants to take tour of an area where people drive like that- bikes!? maybe those WWII duck boats they look safe but ew……
Sara, part of the problem with that area is the motorized traffic. People drive terribly all through the city, and that is a very small congested area. If traffic laws were enforced, or if the city could somehow lessen the traffic in the area, redirect the highway exits, etc., an accident like this would never happen again, and it would be very safe and pleasurable to ride a carriage through there. But as PAN admits, they are not concerned about the care of the horses, or apparently about the care of us humans living and walking in Center City. They should use their voices more constructive, and push for safer streets.
I can see your view, from your front facing eyes with binocular vision, the point of view of an upright walking animal who has outsmarted every last one of it's predators to a certain degree.
It must make you proud to know that your ancestors mastered the art of fire, the written word, the wheel, manufacturing on an industrial level that keeps children around the world hard at work operating everything from looms to machine guns, and even sent some of it's own beyond the home planet's atmosphere and into the deepest depths of its oceans.
You'd take your 'freedom', which you only have because of the statutes and bylaws established by our system of government. Without the laws and protections we have, there would be 30 people living in every 650 square foot house which no one living in would own because the landlords wouldn't permit it.
It is nice to use words like freedom and rights and liberty, especially because our government doesn't prohibit that kind of speech.
Freedom is subjective, but even air and water are not free. Does that mean that by paying taxes and funding the EPA we are enslaving air and water to our own purposes? Everyone has a choice, whether they are human or not. Some are not human, like dogs, horses, red tailed hawks, woodpeckers, mice, roaches; the list goes on.
What would really be nice is if we could parcel out all the land in the United States to people and animals so that they all have enough space. A hawk or owl for each house to control the rat and mouse population, and spiders everywhere to take care of the roaches and flies. Perhaps toads could be kept in moist areas of our homes to eat mosquito and an ambling horse or twenty could come by and fertilize the gardens we'd all keep around our low-carbon footprint dwellings. When rabbits and other small creatures come along to munch on our fresh spring vegetables it would be okay, because we'd have to grow enough to feed them and ourselves as well. The wolves and predatory cats might create a problem, but if one can attract enough smaller animals then they will be happy too, and there will be enough carrion lying around to feed those eagles and other scavengers.
In this world there are no stores, no power plants, strip malls, Applebees, interstates, cities, fire departments or police or hospitals, because there would be no such thing as money, which is needed to pay for these things. A world without infrastructure is a world doomed for destruction. To take the working horses out of work would rob cities that can maintain such industries of a little bit of their soul. It isn't just a charming ride, it keeps mankind connected with nature in ways that cannot be substituted by an interpretive sign or video broadcast. The manure these horses produce also goes into neighborhood gardens. The hay and grains they eat keep farmers on their land. Besides that, they make Philadelphia a better place to live. There's an eight fingered diamond miner in Africa who could use your help.
There is nothing natural about harnessing a horse to a carriage and forcing him to drag around tourists all day in congested city traffic in all kinds of weather. No one learns anything except that it's okay to make animals entertain us, no matter what the cost to them. Because horses have been enslaved this way for centuries doesn't make it right.
Time to end this "tradition" and bring Philly into the 21st Century where it belongs.
perhaps you should head off and buy some heavy blankets for the wild horses in nevada- come to think of it they need all the care the horses get here- ivermectin – fly spray, a warm, clean, deeply bedded stall to mess up and have remaid for you, im just saying-
enjoy !
The wild horses do just fine as long as humans leave them alone.
So you really aren't concerned about the horses being out in all kinds of weather, glad we got that out of the way.
Are there wild horses in the northeast? Where?
As far as this whole "making them (being the horses), "forcing them" blah blah ect. ect. I think that considering these horses size and instincts, that if they didn't want to do this job, or any for that matter, that we as human beings would be hard pressed to stop them.
These aren't exactly "mustangs" we're talking about. Essentially they are the equine equivalent to laboradors. They are domestic.
This is the horses job as it is the job of their human counterparts. If you want to thrive, eat, or have shelter in todays world you must work. These horses have jobs as do I and most humans. Or you suggesting that the animals have more rights than human beings?
With years of experience working with animals I can say for certain that the horses working in this city are taken care of, in good health, and for all intensive purposes "healthy". I have seen them at home as I live in the neighborhood where they do and observed them. These horses do not exhibit bad habits such as cribbing, pacing, chewing ect. This is because they are given adequate stimulation and proper care. Anyone with half a mind about horses can see that they are more than fine.
Im really not sure exactly what these "pro-horse" activists point is. Or what they are really trying to acomplish. It is really ashame these people have nothing better to do with there time.
My grandfather used to train and use horses in the circus. He was the "horse whisperer" of his time. There was even a Life magazine article about him. He had several different acts, one was where a horse jumped off a diving board into a pool. Another was a Uncle Sam, Stalin and Mussolini skit where some of the horses would be frothing at the mouth, etc.
He would make the same argument – no one can force a horse to do anything he doesn't want to do. But my aunt used to travel with him and there was an electric shock on the diving board that made them jump off. He used to beat them before they went out for the Uncle Sam skit.
Please don't make the argument that the horses choose to do this work. I'm not saying that the carriage horse drivers treat their animals the way my grandfather treated his – just that the claim that horses can't be forced to do anything is just complete and total B.S.
ah, yes because Gramps did it, does mean its still ok?
First off, Horses make terrible divers, never score above 2s, no shot at the olympics in Rio.
2ndly, with excuses made to mr. ed, horses are meant for comedy as much as they are for meant for the high dive, so grandpa should leave the comedy to the professionals of his time, like the Marx brothers and most horse whisperers I heard of use their words, softly, like a whisper. Very few use electricity.
Nice try at diverting from the point, which is this: horses can be forced to do what they don't want to do, despite claims of the horse carriage industry supporters to the contrary.
Diverting, not at all. Tongue and cheek humor, maybe
When they say they can't be forced, they mean that if the horse doesn't want to work we can't force it to, and unlike during Gramps time, beating is unacceptable. Also if the horse wasn't agreeable to being attached to the carriage, the horse could turn it into kindling in a matter of minutes, until the horse is attached no longer.
So who is diverting from the point, so far we've been over slavery and we've been to the circus, we've gone to the track, and you've even admitted this isn't about safety(sorry Jason admitted that, not you) but you see where I'm going with this.
So what far off topic shall we discuss next?
Beating horses wasn't okay in Grampa's time, either – maybe reread my post. The beatings, etc. were done behind the scenes. He presented himself as a 'horse whisperer" who could get horses to do things they normally wouldn't do, like dive, etc.
And everything you just wrote could have come out of the mouth of a Ringling trainer referring to elephants. It just isn't true for elephants, or for horses. Rather, it's an excuse that people who make their living off of animals make for using them for entertainment and profit.
take a look at sharkonline and see the rodeo pics with the cowboys and their electric prods. see the circus elephants with picks making them do what the trainers want them to do. animals are brutalized in this country every single day. you choose to be ignorant about this whole situation. enlighten yourself please before you write drivel.
Ok, I did as you asked and reread your post, and you said nothing about gramps methods being unacceptable for the time. So at best his claims of being a 'horse whisperer' are highly suspect bordering on fraudulent.
And of course everything I've written comes directly from Ringling Bros. PR page since my opinion differs from yours. Because I disagree with your position doesn't mean I'd accuse you of simply spouting PETA's propaganda as your own.
as for elephants they'd take far less time to turn a carriage into kindling, and do a far more through job of it.
And here I thought it was the History, and the way the drivers tell the tale that was the entertaining part
If what I said was exactly what PETA says and you could show where it is, then it would be appropriate for you to point that out.
The point of my original post was that my aunt saw what happened behind the scenes while my grandfather pretended to be this great horse whisperer who could get horses to do anything – do you know what is meant by "horse whisperer"? If you don't, maybe that is why you're misrepresenting what I've written.
If it's the history and the drivers telling the tale that is entertaining, then lose the horses and use vintage vehicles or pedicabs to take tourists around the city.
Sigh, again you exaggerate. I did not claim that you were just 'copying and pasting' PETA's ideals as your own, maybe reread my post again. And the only misrepresenting going on here is your position that Carriage horses are being exploited, that its slavery. Yet you have no problem with Horse Racing, because you have Race horse "friends" who agree with your position. And that your group will not turn on them, one you are finished with the carriages.
Please stop lying, I never said that horse racing is okay, and again- please reread my posts. You seem to have a real challenge with reading comprehension, with all due respect.
I don't target my friends who take carriage rides, or go to the track, or eat meat. I target the industries. Not sure why you can't seem to grasp the difference, but I'm happy to keep repeating the message until it sinks in.
Marina, I do owe you an apology. You didn't say Horse racing was ok.
The fault is mine, I mixed up what you had said with what Jackie had said.
"Jackie Walker says:
April 25, 2010 at 7:29 pm
We are humans and that is our only qualification. We have an obligation to help others who are in need or cannot speak for themselves.
Though, I do know veterinarians and meat-eating, horse racing friends who agree with a ban."
So please accept my sincere apology in this regard.
For the record its Jackie that has "Horse racing friends" you have friends that just go to the track. I would guess they also wager, and you've explained your position to them, and they agree with your ban on carriages, do they agree with your ban once it turns toward the track and it effects them? And what are you waiting for to start saving race horses, or are you there when you aren't protesting carriage horses?
Also Marina, I've gone to lengths to keep my comments 'above the belt' so to speak, so lets keep those gloves of yours up. Also you can't insult someone then add with all due respect, doesn't work now does it?
Now that thats straightened out, pleas be sure to pass on to Jackie those post that were mistakenly directed at you.
I never saw EPSM in any carriage horse who are drafts, known and prone to the muscle degenerative disease- because of adequate exercise. Drafts used for pleasure are rendered useless all the time from it.
Stop breeding drafts and the problem will end.
Why do you hate horses?
Horses are domestic and have been domesticated for 6000 years. Humans and horses have coevolved to be partners.
The eradication of draft horses is your goal? Because there aren't wild draft horses. There aren't WILD horses, either – feral horses, yes. All "wild" horses in the US are the descendants of horses that once lived with people but were abandoned.
Horses are like cats. Yes, they can live in the wild, but they do much better when they live with people.
Most people, included me, use "wild" horses to refer to the domesticated horses that have adapted to living in the wild in the U.S. As long as humans don't interfere with them, they do great.
the term I believe would be 'feral' not domesticated/wild which is an oxymoron.
No one is disputing they are feral. However, as I noted, many people including me, refer to the domesticated horses who have adapted to living in the wild as "wild."
I noticed the public didn't even pay much attention to the protesters or the counters. They just kept on riding, because they were on vacation. You have no idea who some of those people were that were standing out there. Some of them were officers of our police department, who these carriages have served when they were fallen, who are pushing to bring back the mounted officers, because, yes, horses are allowed to be ridden on city streets in Philadelphia. They were the park rangers that work side by side with those horses and drivers. I understand the police, park, and city weren't there in such presence until yesterday. I wonder who they were there to protect. You don't know the degrees and titles held by some of those people you saw. But no one was there to promote a company yesterday. There's a solidarity there your small disbanded group cannot understand.
I don't work for any company you saw represented in any way yesterday… but once a carriage driver, always a carriage driver.
There were Park Service rangers standing in solidarity with the horse-drawn carriage industry? Is that why the one ranger had to physically restrain a driver who became confrontational with a member of the public?
Please that was no 'Member of the public' but a Member of your group. Which is exactly what I said could happen by having your protesters too near the carriages too soon after the "accident" which is something your group would be all to happy to exacerbate into something far worse.
Within ear shot is close enough to get your point to those you want to hear it. With in reach of carriage drivers at the end of a lead rope is too close and is looking for if not hoping for trouble. And that is a fact of which I'm sure you are quite aware.
We'll post the video. It was a driver. That's the great thing about videotaping these demos – when people like you rewrite history, it's there to show the facts.
Sorry, I mean it was a member of the public. That person was just riding by with their bike and agreed with the protesters. Doing so doesn't make him a member of our group. And there is no excuse for the behavior of the driver. No one is hoping for trouble except apparently the drivers who insult, taunt, and knock over protester's signs.
Which is why again I say proper distance between you and what your protesting is required, but unlike a former president who would have you protesting 3 miles away underneath a busy overpass, 25 feet should be enough for both your group and the carriage drivers to co-exist, but being close enough for them to reach is asking/looking/hoping for trouble and you know it.
No one is trying to excuse that particular driver's behavior, but it is understandable with your group exploiting the accident pictures and all, way too close to people still reeling from the accident. Each one of them has had a person like the old man that caused this "accident" behind them at one time or another. Each one probably thinking thoughts along the lines this could have happened to me, would I have been so lucky.
Now I say 25 feet should be enough for you and the carriages to co-exist but you have no interest in co-existing, and an incident like the one between the driver and your "member of the public" is exactly what your group would love to have on video, admit it to yourself, if not here. Just like your group would be happy if they could have gotten a martyr for your cause out of that "accident", not actually joyful but a small sacrifice for your greater good.
Well, thankfully, you're not in charge of setting up protests in Philly, so your belief that 25 feet separation is necessary is simply your opinion.
No one is looking for trouble except the drivers, and if they can't control their behavior, then they should be arrested for disorderly conduct. The peaceful protesters should not be penalized for the drivers' failure to obey applicable laws.
Come now, the Drivers aren't looking to do anything other than their job, if they were looking for trouble they'd come to where you work, and protest you from just outside your cubicle.
Good thing I'm not in charge of setting up protests? Why do you think you had company with an opposing view?
No need to thank me. 
And 25 feet is an aribtary amount, just a nice round figure I'd be willing to knock 10 feet off that. 15 feet is still out reach, but your claim of the need for proximity is less about getting your message out and more about disrupting business, not in an interfering way but by your presence.
You're no more in charge in setting up protests in Philly than I am, and your opinion on where protesters should stand is about as relevant to this discussion as my opinion on the price of salt.
If the drivers aren't looking for trouble, then they shouldn't insult, knock over signs, or threaten the way some have every week we've been out there.
And if you think what I'm doing at my job is morally wrong and harmful to animals, then you SHOULD peacefully express your First Amendment rights regarding it. And you won't have anyone calling for a "counter-protest" if you do so.
Well how much do you charge for salt? Do you have different prices for table, sea, and rock salt? How much profit did you make from exploiting sodium this winter? Where protesters should stand is very relevant to this conversation, and much more useful than your opinion on sodium stock prices.
On the contrary I was very much responsible for setting up at least one protest on Saturday, if you're just ok with showing up to one where others have everything already taken care of, but hey thats super, thanks for coming out.
I only saw one driver have trouble with his temper, which coming on the heels of the "accident" and your decision to exploit it for you own agenda with your group too close, can be understood but not condoned.
I didn't see anyone kicking signs over, what happened to the protesters that were holding those signs?
And I don't think theres anything wrong with your job, not that I have a clue what it is you do, but at the risk of personifying you, you could be getting exploited are you truely suited to your job, is it what you're meant to be doing? Should people be demanding your release into the wild where you can go back to hunting and gathering, living in a cave or in a tree. We can help you stop being forced to walk up right since you've only been condition to do so for generations.
Though I will take into consideration how your boss treats you. You know caring for feeding, medical care. Whether your boss makes you work when it gets to hot or cold for you, if you have time to socialize with your co-workers, and get time away from your cubical. If your boss takes every precaution to make your job as safe as possible. But then if I still decided to protest, I would welcome counter protesters and wouldn't accuse them of being a johnny come lately just because I had been there longer.
You may have told the counter protesters where to stand, but you had nothing to do with where the protesters stood, so who cares about your thoughts about a 15 foot, or a 25 foot, barrier from the carriage horses? The protesters stood within inches of the drivers and the counter-protesters, and the only problem was with the drivers.
Your ignorance of the drivers knocking over signs reveals that last week was the first week you showed up – or you would know. Unlike you, who just showed up after the accident, the protesters have been at the site for over a year. Problems with drivers throwing tantrums is nothing new and has required police intervention on more than one occasion.
OK where did I claim to have been there more than that day? I did say that the length of time a person has protested does not add or lessen the weight of the grievance that calls them to protest.
As for ignorance, don't confuse seeking enlightenment for ignorance, I asked what happened to the protesters that were holding those signs, are you saying that the carriage drivers kicked those signs out of their hands?
Ok, you do realize you've just contradicted yourself, and at the same time make my case for more distance between protesters and the drivers. I'll show you,
Marina says:
April 27, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Nothing happened (except for the driver who had to be physically restrained) despite everyone standing inches from each other. And everyone was able to get their message out.
so who cares about your thoughts about a 15 foot, or a 25 foot, barrier from the carriage horses?
Your ignorance of the drivers knocking over signs reveals that last week was the first week you showed up – or you would know. Unlike you, who just showed up after the accident, the protesters have been at the site for over a year. Problems with drivers throwing tantrums is nothing new and has required police intervention on more than one occasion.
If there are continuous problems then perhaps more distance is necessary. Since the drivers can't be moved, your group would have to give the additional distance, a perfect place for that would be the Signers garden @ 5th and Chestnut. Not that you would agree, but if its about the message and not causing trouble then I don't see where your group would have a problem.
No one causes troubles except the drivers. Rather than restrict First Amendment rights of peaceful protesters, the drivers should obey the law.
No contradiction on my part. I've said from the beginning that there were no problems that day other than the driver who had to be physically restrained. The knocking over of signs occurred on other days, which I made clear when I pointed out that your ignorance of them showed that you weren't around until the accident…but we were.
By the way, how long are you plan to keep milking the accident for sympathy>
Actually you did, but that is ok I know you have a hard time admitting when you're wrong.
And I'm asking for enlightenment, its not ignorance to ask. And I'd not be for kicking signs anymore than I'd be for restricting free speech, my point is about space. I never claimed to have been there before that day, which is why I asked.
So how did a driver kick signs out of the hands of protesters before? Karate, kung fu, capoeira, interpretative dance?
And how long do I plan milking? Hmmm, are you saying Brian and Jane aren't deserving of some sympathy? I know you don't agree with horses on carriages or working animals in general, but thats just plain cold. And I know that mentioning the accident doesn't matter to you since your arguement isn't about safety, so you might be tired of hearing about it. Though tell me, how long do you plan to "Milk" the "accident" for your agenda?
And while we're at it how long to you plan to respond with attacks rather than facts. Short run down of your last post, I'm restricting free speech, carriage drivers don't obey laws, ignorance, and milking for sympathy.
No, you're the only one here who has suggested that Brian and Jane don't deserve sympathy. Some of us were going to send them something, but we decided it would look like we were trying to get attention for our cause…kind of like the people who carry the signs "Ride for Brian and Jane" instead of genuine sympathy.
Ok where exactly did I say that Brian & Jane, were not deserving of sympathy? I'm very curious as to where, since I wouldn't have gone to the hospital to visit, guess the get well card with your pictures of the crash scene was bad taste….
I believe you are confusing me with comments made by Jason Albertson. Where Jason both blamed them for being there and wished them well.
You'll see that I've been steadfast in saying that Brian and Jane deserve sympathy, as I have been in saying that your group grants them none.
Brian, you wrote:
"Hmmm, are you saying Brian and Jane aren't deserving of some sympathy?"
You are the only one who has even suggested that they would not be deserving of sympathy. And no one trying to get the horses off the streets of Philadelphia has asked for sympathy, so not sure why you would claim they don't deserve any.
And to answer your earlier question about how the driver knocked over the signs – he walked over to the sign, put his hand down, and pushed it over. Someone put it back up, and he did the same thing.
Now who is having problems with reading comprehension?
I said "Are you suggesting they aren't deserving of sympathy? I know you don't agree with horses on carriages or working animals in general, but thats just plain cold." You claimed I'm "milking the "accident" for sympathy" which goes to say that you think the time for sympathy has passed, Shame on you. And what sympathy do the Anti-carriage protesters and their agenda require were there feelings hurt?
Don't forget I asked what happened to the protester holding the sign?
And you still haven't answered if your friends that go to the track agree with your ban once it turns to the track?
I think I've been pretty clear that I think it's tacky to use the tragic accident to try to increase business – and that is what I referring to when I said "milking the accident."
I'm just wondering how long you'll keep bringing it up to try to get sympathy for your cause – the carriage horse industry. No one, except you, has said anything about Brian and Jane not deserving sympathy. Just because I don't agree with what you are doing (using the accident to increase sales and get sympathy for your cause, the carriage industry) doesn't mean that anyone thinks the victims, Brian and Jane, do not deserve sympathy. For you to even suggest that is disgusting.
Everyone used to think slaves were different, animals, unlike us, and etc who could be forced to do things they didn't want to do.
Some day mankind will realize animals, some being much smarter than us, deserve to be treated with kindness; not forced to do anything or be used for food.
Never thought of it that way.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. The horses are not enslaved.
I don't understand your argument.
Get to know a horse. They are great friends!
on the contrary not everyone believed slaves were different, animals or unlike us, Ben Franklin most notably.
And there are many animals that are smarter than man, dolphins, whales, octopi are quite resourceful for an invertebrate, and these horses are treated with every kindness, and the one that does the fewest rides in a day is not eaten.
oh and women, they are often said to be smarter than man
didn't want to leave anyone out
who would vote down women being smarter than men,
You obviously have never had a horse friend. Otherwise, you might understand that these horses like their jobs, and like their human friends. They greet us "Hello" in the mornings, in their horsie way, and they seem to enjoy their jobs more than alot of humans I know. How about you? Do you like your job, and the people you see there? The horses do. You're not forced to work, are you? You can very well choose not to work, which means you have no money to eat, and your life would be greatly shortened for living on the street, and picking through the trash. If a horse does not have a job with humans (working in an Amish field, working as a race horse, or show horse, or pulling a carriage or Amish buggy) and lives as a "wild" horse on the very limited government land allotted to them, this is the kind of life they lead: Like homeless living on the streets. They have to fight for food & territory and half of them starve in the winter. The other half get rounded up by government agents and slaughtered every year because there is no space for them. These horses LIKE their jobs, and if they don't, a horse will let you know. Being such large animals, we cannot literally FORCE a horse to do anything. They can kick us, stomp on us, break off the carriage, run over cars……if they wanted to. But they do not. They like their jobs and the cushy existence it affords them (2 full-body massages each day, room service, 2 month vacation every year), they enjoy being productive members of our society, and they trust their human friends. That is why they continue do their jobs. We are always kind to our horses; sometimes more than we are to each other. And nobody I have ever met in my lifetime has ever eaten horse meat (though it was once as common as cow).
If you really knew the animals that you so forcefully defend, you would understand that they have a good life.
Please read Brian McCabe's post cautioning against the personification of horses. The few facts out there that are undisputed include (1) horses are prey animals with flight responses (2) horses are herd animals and very social. The opinions on whether those instincts and natural behaviors are subverted and compromised by being harnessed to lug tourists around congested city streets for profit vary, with those profiting from the horses claiming they are not, and those trying to end the horse-drawn carriage industry claiming they are. You decide who is more credible….
Here's a few more facts for you. 100,000 horses were slaughtered in America last year because they were put out of work and their humans could no longer afford to take care of them. Working horses live longer than "wild" horses because they are better taken care of. There is NOT enough land left in America, on sanctuaries or on government land for every horse to roam free. Sanctuaries ARE desperately underfunded, but if you really want to help, donate your money to a sanctuaries created by former carriage drivers for retired carriage horses: BLUE STAR EQUICULTURE http://www.equiculture.org
If humans stopped breeding horses for profit, zero would have to be killed. Educate yourself on the facts – there is plenty of room for the horses currently roaming free in the western states.
True, but where do the majority of the horses that are bred go? They can't all have gone through the carriages, could they?
Or is it the slaughter, racing, pleasure riding that causes the most demand, I think it just might
Horse racing is awful too. If you want to start a campaign to help end it, I'd give you all my support. I'm going to stick with the horse-drawn carriage campaign for lots of reasons, including the fact that it's happening right in my backyard. I think global, act local.
You have a place with a yard? In downtown Philly? Wow, that must have set you back a pretty penny. And you do realize horse racing is taking place right in your back yard, psst…PARX casino also has a race track.
As I said, horse racing is bad too, and if you want to try to do something about it instead of judging what others are doing, I'll be first in line to help you. I'm going to stick with the horse drawn carriage campaign since it's happening right in my backyard (figuratively).
No I'm not a carriage driver. There were many former drivers there to show support and solidarity, unlike your group that disbanded. And some of the other people that stood for those drivers..you don't even know who they were. You'd be surprised to find out how far-reaching the support for carriage people is. Again, you should educate yourself before you preach.
And you might be surprised how many people think the horse-drawn carriages suck. Time will tell.
Well we know thats how you feel about the carriages. The only people who think the carriage may suck as you say, are people perfectly willing to us their automobile to plow through a line of carriages instead of using one of the two other lanes of traffic that the carriages didn't occupy.
So everyone who thinks horse-drawn carriages sucks is now a criminal? I wondered how long it would take for someone to accuse the driver of being a supporter of those against horse-drawn carriages. Kudos to you, Brian, for being so desparate to make that claim.
I'm sorry I know I missed the 'E' on the end of 'use' but I'm not quite sure where I typed that there was a PAN bumper sticker on that old man's battering ram.
You sound pretty desperate yourself if your grasping for that straw, and I'm not accusing you of hiring a 73 yr. old hit man, nor am I saying its criminal to dislike carriages.
You wrote: "The only people who think the carriage may suck as you say, are people perfectly willing to us their automobile to plow through a line of carriages instead of using one of the two other lanes of traffic that the carriages didn't occupy."
So, according to you, everyone who thinks carriages suck is also willing to become criminals. You're really something else – scary, in fact – with the depths you sink to to try to discredit those who disagree with you.
Still pretty desperate I see, all you've done is try to discredit, defame and slander, and anything that contradicts you, you ignore, when wrong you fail to come clean, when caught, you refuse to answer.
I didn't say those people are willing to be criminals. Most people though, few if any, may consider such an unspeakable act, would shake that though away as the crazy idea it is and pass the carriage in the proper manner.
Plowing through a line of carriages isn't a crime? Really?????
I said few if any would even consider such an unspeakable act, so far in this country thoughts aren't illegal, so try having a few. And I'm still waiting to hear you say whether your friends that go to the track, still agree with your ban once it turns its attention to the track.
You wrote:
You wrote: "The only people who think the carriage may suck as you say, are people perfectly willing to us their automobile to plow through a line of carriages instead of using one of the two other lanes of traffic that the carriages didn't occupy."
You can rationalize and justify all you want, but the fact is that you claimed that people who think carriages suck are also people who will ram into them. Shame on you.
I said "willing" not will. And you should try an do some rationalizing of your own.
And I'm still waiting on your answer on your friends that go to the track, whether they still agree with your ban once it turns its attention on the track?
Also waiting on you to explain how people were able to kick signs out of protester's hands?
If you say someone is "willing" to be a criminal simply because they also don't like horses in the city, that is somehow okay for you to say?
It's fun to watch you try to squirm out of your accusations and misrepresentations, I will give you that. Let's see what you come up with next… LOL
Brandon Gittelman should find another way to entertain himself.
Good one Gittelman!!! Let's add more pollution, gas dependancy, and take away from the history of our city. What do have some major stocks in the companies that would produce these vehicles? Oh and btw, where would these vehicles be built, Korea???
What is adding to the "history of our city" with a sad-looking horse standing around in traffic? Horse drawn carriage belong in history – in the pages of our history books, like slavery and the freak show – NOT on city streets.
I think there are too many cars on your city streets and with the fantastic public transportation there is no need for that. Horses belong in the here and now, can't say the same for all people.
Have to disagree with you there. Just like horse-riding is forbidden on busy city streets and on the freeway, so should horse-drawn carriages. It's time to end this "tradition."
Right, and people should be banned from crossing streets. They're just too slow.
@Judith, people choose to walk on streets. They are not forced to, like these animals are for hours every day. A ban is needed so these animals are not being forced to do anything they wouldn't do naturally. A benefit to the ban would be safer streets for everyone, but that is not the main reason for the ban. The main reason is that these animals are slaves to the carriage industry and no person or animal should be a slave to anyone, no matter how well they are treated.
"people should be banned from crossing streets. They're just too slow." Actually, people are banned from walking on the freeways – and there are certain places for them to cross city streets. Your analogy fails in every way, but is a great way to prove my point: horses don't belong in city traffic.
The problem here is personification, ascribing human qualities to non-humans or objects. You can't proclaim them sad, with out knowing the horse and I don't mean horses in general but man to horse, I know lots of people who look sad at their job, doesn't mean they are or that its even their job that is affecting their attitude.
And the whole slavery misplaced is such drivel, and the connection weak to non-existent, man and are different, man is aware of choice, and is conscious of being deprived of that choice, and the willful mistreatment at the hands of his fellow man. The Horses we love aware on the level man is, they aren't made to suffer and they are not being deprived of a choice they aren't aware of there being one. this is their way of life, so where in the pages of history your proposed ban fall? The emancipation proclamation, freeing slaves in areas they had no authority over, but not in lands they do control, or will be more akin to the 'trail of tears' the forced removal of a people of a people b/c your agenda doesn't agree with them being where they are.
Brian-
The reason you believe we are conscious beings, is because we have language in order to express this. But can you do the many things animals can do that we cannot? Sonar, flying, etc? Just because we do something that we believe others do not, does not make us "better" or "smarter," because they might be thinking the same thing about you.
I am not equating the Emancipation Proclamation to a ban on horse-drawn carriages. I would equate the ban to a ban made by a city to lessen the effects of slavery and racism at the time.
Were everyone's attitude toward history as selfish and self-centered as yours, we would not have Independence Hall (it no longer has any meaningful use), City Hall (it's not 'green', the US Capitol (not 'green' Gettysburg Battlefield (wasted land not use for green purposes), etc. etc. If our forefathers in England had your attitude, there would be no Parliament Building, no Buckingham Palace, no St. Paul's Cathedral, etc.
Get a life you selfish person.
Man, you don't know horses. Just like I said, some people are just too slow.
Judith, what does someone need to know about horses to know that it is wrong to force another living being do something?
I see you travel in PACs. You know, you people are the embodiment of everything that is wrong with this country today. I LOVE HORSES! Go get a life.
When you can't think of anything to say, go for the ad hominem attack – works every time, right Judith?
Judith,
No one has called you names. You apparently have no response to the question and must resort to name-calling and rudeness.
I'm glad to have read your posts, because it is good to listen to others' opinions.
I'm sure readers will truly be able to see who is "everything that is wrong with this country today" by the comments you have made on this article.
@ Brian – I said "sad-looking" not "sad" because I agree, we don't know what the horse is feeling. You don't know that the horse wants to work, or that he doesn't know on some level that his basic instincts to live in a social herd aren't being horribly frustrated in an environment where he is shackled to a carriage for many horse. The best interest of the horse is not the number one factor in the horse-drawn carriage industry – it's a profit-driven business that uses horses to make money.
You said "sad looking" but didn't mean to imply sadness, then I apologize if I misquoted you.
@ Jackie, did I at any point claim to be smarter than a horse, or to be better than they?
Sure I use my fingers to count and they may only use their hoof, but 10 is 10 however you get there. I've know many drivers, and many horses, there were many times were the driver was clearly not the 'captain' of that ship, probably lucky to be considered cabin boy. And I can do all those things that an animal can do w/ greater or lesser degrees of success, because I'm Man, I would need the use of a tool.
And as far as a ban to end racism and slavery I'm all for that, and you'll get no better example that the carriage horses. You have many horses of many different colors all working together in harmony with their human partners who are also mutil-cultural. which is far more than the Emancipation Proclamation did, for it did nothing to lessen the effects of slavery which took a war to end, and racism was still very rampent
Marina,
You reveal you total stupidity with every post. In the (slightly cleaned up) words of my grandfather, you are trying to paint horse feces white.
I suppose you were protesting Coca Cola in schools or something when they taught history. Horses have been domesticated animals for over 4,500 years. The 'wild' mustangs of the American southwest are merely feral animals or their descendants. Since you probably do not know what feral means, I will define it as does the dictionary, – a domesticated animal released into the wild.
My father as a young man in the 1920's was a helper on a milk truck before classes began at Boys High in Philadelphia. The horse he worked with day after day was so well used to the route that it would actually run the route without any input from dad or the driver. It would just go to the next stop and wait for dad or the driver to deliver product and pick up empties. On days off from school, dad and the driver would often sleep from the last stop until they reached the barn on Market Street.
Anyone who has spent any time around a horse farm or an Amish farm where mules still do the plowing, reaping, etc. and horses provide transportation for the family knows how well and lovingly these magnificent animals are tended.
You need to get a life.
Bob – your rant is entertaining to read, but addresses nothing in my original post, which simply points out that horses are social, herd animals. The fact that they are domesticated doesn't change that.
Marina
so now you claim because they are carriage horses, that they don't socialize, don't have a herd?
They are a herd, they socialize with each other, with their divers who would be considered lucky to be part of the herd, with each other at the end of the day, and all day on their days off.
If they have no herd, and don't socialize, how did the the horses know 3 of there number where missing that day and some were looking for them down every street, and around every corner.
Brian -sounds like you're doing some personification of the horses, something you caution others against doing. You don't know what the horses think. Standing harnessed next to each other isn't natural herd structure any more than elephants chained in box cars- which just as you do, Ringling Bros. claims meets the social needs of elephants.
Do you have a dog? Have friends who have dogs? Do you bitch at them for upsetting the natural pack mentality of the wolf by keeping their domesticated, neutered dog locked up in the house all day, only to possibly mingle with other dogs once a day when they go out to pee? Do you know why we have so many different dog breeds? They were all designed (by humans) for a specific purpose. Mastiffs for hunting bears, Retrievers for hunting ducks, St Bernards for finding lost humans in the mountains, and Shi Tzu for warming the feet of Chinese princesses.
Is it always wrong for humans to domesticate and breed animals? Is it okay some of the time, (like when you want a dog or cat as a pet) but not okay when we're talking about horses or elephants?
Perhaps your time could be better spent building a time machine to go back 10,000 years and tell people not to domesticate the dog, then go back to 8,000 years ago and tell those people not to domesticate the horse.
Just by being humans in this modern world, we have completely altered the "natural environment" of every animal on every continent. If you truly wish to return the horses to their"natural environment" so they can rely on their "basic instincts" then you need to get busy, lady. There's thousands of miles of highways to tear up so that the horses can migrate and roam freely. Of course, there's also millions of American homes in the way, so you'd have to knockdown all those homes, and move all the cattle and pigs and chickens that we eat off the land too. Which wouldn't leave much space for humans to live, so you better start killing off half the human population. This would solve the pollution problem, and free up plenty of space and all the animals could regain their natural order.
But where would you be? Not living in our modern capitalistic society where you have the freedom to spew asinine statements all over your fellow human beings.
Me engage in personification, hardly, but allow me to clarify if I gave the wrong impression.
the horses were aware that some of the other members of their herd that were made ready to work in the morning, left the herd to go downtown, but never rejoined the herd down there. And a few of those horses, were more vocal in calling out for any other horse that may be in the area. Now were they looking to find the missing members of their herd or calling out to other horses to see if they knew the location of the missing horses. Now I don't claim to know what the horses were thinking. Though that behavior seems indicate that but of course no one can be sure for certain.
I'll give that one Horses don't belong on the Highway, but city streets they can handle just fine
Brace yourself… I eat meat too!!!
Yes, it is clear, you travel in packs and you isolate and attack for your religion. Separation of church and city!!! Ok you can all go home now.
Judith, this has nothing to do with or without eating meat.
This is about the slavery and exploitation of these horses.
By the way, I have no religion, I'm atheist. If you're talking about my lifestyle choices, I guess my "religion" would be love and kindness. Something you seem to be lacking when you can't think of anything else to say.
If I may, Love and Happiness my friend. Who do you work for? I hope you have a job under the current conditions. Horses are like people, they like to work and contribute to the world.
Judith – read Brian's post where he cautions about the "personification" of horses. You really don't know that "horses are like people" and that they "like to work." That is your belief, because it fits into your worldview – not a fact.
So glad you pointed that out, as is your belief that to put a horse to work is slavery. How many horses have you raised? How many horses do you know? What are your qualifications to enforce your beliefs upon others?
We are humans and that is our only qualification. We have an obligation to help others who are in need or cannot speak for themselves.
Though, I do know veterinarians and meat-eating, horse racing friends who agree with a ban.
Jackie are you telling me that your only qualification in all of this is that you are human?!?
Horses are social animals who live in herds naturally. They are bred to work in city traffic because they make money for someone, for no other reason.
wait your horse racing friends agree with the ban, if thats not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.
Do these same "Friends" know once you finish the carriage horses, that you will then turn your attention toward them? Because I can't imagine you'd work so hard to ban carriage horses because its exploitation, its slavery, and yet, turn a blind eye to the horrors of the race track. Where small cruel men ride upon their backs, smacking them with small sticks, all the while making them run at breakneck speed, while still asking for more speed. Where only the winners, are given a final reward, and put out to stud. How many years do they have these track horses before their legs finally give out? You don't think these same friends agree with your ban, because it doesn't effect them, and it saves them from the tender mercies of your groups attention? Nah, surely not.
@ Brian – I have friends who take carriage rides, go to the track, and eat meat – and despite your assertions to the contrary, I don't plan to turn my attention on them after there is a ban on horse drawn carriage rides.
Wait, You don't plan to save race horses from their blight? But you care about the horses and don't want to see them exploited, right?
So how is pulling a carriage(a rather easy task)exploitation yet horse racing (which is grueling and debilitating)not. And if you want talk exploitation, what about the betting involved?
Far as I know Vegas doesn't take many bets on which carriage horse will be back from a ride 1st 2nd and 3rd. There are no off the carriage betting parlors.
Also I said nothing about turning you attention to your meat eating friends or the friends of yours that have taken carriage rides. I was talking very specifically about your horse racing friends and you know it. If you want and succeed in saving carriage horses every where, your telling me that your horse racing friends wouldn't be next in line for your group to save? do you not care about the race horse? are they not being exploited?
I think you need to reread my post – I don't plan to target my friends, who take carriage rides, go to the track, or eat meat.
My activism targets the industries that exploit animals. I do educate my friends at every opportunity, though.
Marina,
See right here is where the mix up occurs. Jackie mentions her "horse racing friends" that agree with the ban, and I call out on that. Right after that is where you come in a saying you don't plan on turning on your 'friends that go' to the track, even though if they didn't go to the track and place their bets, the track would stop being there.
So Jackie, Marina,I'll put to you again, do your friends agree with your ban, when it turns to the track? Or do they only agree because it doesn't effect them in the slightest?
I'm not sure what will happen if a campaign to help the horses in racing would start up in this area – why don't you work on it, and I'll let you know?
Wild horses are hunter from helicopters for sport. I'd much rather see them fat and happy and being petted by children and tourists. If one of YOUR friends is asking to pet a horse, they should be charged, with assault on an animal. You are obviously not animal lovers, and need to look at the horses before you talk. And please leave Philadelphia. We are sick of seeing you in our neighborhood.
Harnessing horses to drag tourists around a congested city isn't helping to end the hunting of horses in the western U.S. I learned two wrongs don't make a right back in kindergarten…
Yet ending Carriage Horses does nothing to save wild horses in the west.
Your right about 2 wrongs don't make a right, ending carriages, hunting horses in the west are both wrong, and I also learned back in kindergarten that 2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 lefts do.
Brian is Brain, because the horse people are the only ones making sense in their argument.
They're the only ones getting paid, too.
Again, you really have to tell me where I can pick up these pay checks your talking about, I'm a father of 2 beautiful girls, I could use the money. Then again as I said if there was money involved the pro-carriage horse people would just send it on to Brian & Jane.
The drivers aren't getting paid?
Tell me where go to go to get paid first. The drivers of course are paid for their work, after all they are attached to their equine partner all day, dealing with customers, telling the history of this city, and working for their daily bread and to fill their partner's hay rack.
But thank for agreeing that the Pro-carriage horses people are the only ones making sense in their arguments.
Mike Slocum isn't getting paid?
Yes I do believe Mr. Solcum is employed, not sure what he does, never see him down town. I think he might have a paper route.
Are you seriously suggesting that there can't be more than one person in the pro-horse group named Mike? Heck, there used to be a carriage horse named Mike, too, before he retired! (Plus a good half dozen drivers named Mike over the past few years.)
Anyway, the horse people aren't getting paid to protest – the carriage drivers are at work and not participating.
It's the anti-horse people who are using their so-called volunteerism to claim more status, as if not getting paid makes up for lack of first-hand knowledge.
There's a reason there's a difference between "professional" and "amateur."
He was among the counter-protesters holding signs on Saturday. We have lots of photos and videos of him to prove it, in case you want to lie about that, too.
That guy on 5th street with the white hair and shirt to match holding the 'carriages fun and educational' sign? Or was he on sixth street before I showed up?
Now, I warned you about keeping those gloves up, I'm going to have to deduct a point from your score card. I told you I've gone to lengths to keep this from just degerating into name calling, and I've corrected myself when wrong, 'jackie's has horse racing friends your friends just go to the track' you said 'sad-looking not sad' , yet you've failed to do the same in particular repeating when you were misquoted in an effort to slander the divers.
Now what lies have I spoken this time? Are you referring to 'Yes I do believe Mr. Slocum is employed, not sure what he does, never see him down town. I think he might have a paper route'?
I would have thought you could understand the context and tone of that statement, so let me show you how you should have read it.
Yes I do believe Mr. Solcum is employed, (I'm)not sure what he does, (I)never see him down town. I think he might have a paper route.
the words in parenthesis are the words you should have understood to be there. As for tone, I apologize, I for get that there are people unfamiliar with sarcasm, and how its used in our language.
Among other things, you claimed that the passerby who was insulted by the carriage driver was a member of the protesters. That is a flat-out lie.
And you're misrepresented things several times, like when you claim no one of the counter-protesters are getting paid. Slocum's livelihood in part relies on income from the horse-drawn carriages. He's getting paid. No wonder he's there. Of the protesters, not a single one receives a dime for their efforts in getting horses off the streets of Philly.
Well first you haven't told me if it was the man I mentioned or someone else on 6th street that had left before I had gotten over there. And I believe it was your question that
"Marina says:
April 27, 2010 at 7:51 am
The drivers aren't getting paid? " and I have said that no drivers were part of the counter protest, Last time I checked, Mr. Slocum wasn't a driver but the owner. That would have to be one hell of a demotion he'd have to give himself to go from owner to driver. I was not misrepresenting that '(I) never see him down town' I was being sarcastic. He certainly has the right to defend his business from being unfairly maligned. As for getting paid, Mike has lots of business opportunities, lets not for get his paper route, but I'm sure your focused on the Carriage side of things. So with out knowing their final numbers for the day, subtracting from that, paying for hay, water and feed for the horses, the drivers for their work (not protesting), stable hands, insurance and such. Actually none of that matters so lets take their total for the day, and just subtract the medical bills for the 2 injured drivers that he has taken on personally. I say when the final tally comes he may have paid to come to work, not got paid.
You need to go back and see what this thread is all about. The original post said, "the horse people are the only ones making sense…" and I wrote, "they're the only ones getting paid."
Actually, there is some confusion about who Mike Slocum is…a man identified himself as the owner of the 76 Carriage Co. to advocates a while ago. He is either impersonating Mike Slocum, or sometimes pretends he is not Mike Slocum.
I am going to polite, and not respond in the manner that you normally do when I am mistaken on a point. I won't say anything about misrepresenting or call you a liar, or say your trying to rewrite history, I'll simply say this.
Well, perhaps you should know what Mike Slocum looks like before you claim he was among the pro-carriage protesters.
I wait your apology on this matter.
I asked you if a certain individual was Mike, or if that person had left before I got over there. I provided a description of the person I thought you might be referring to, or if provided a description of the person you believed to be Mr. Slocum I would have been able to confirm or tell you you have the wrong guy.
I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong – and it looks like I was wrong about Slocum..but I'm still not sure. There is someone I know who knows what he looks like, so I'm going to ask him. Regardless, the fact is that a gentleman identified himself as the owner of 76 Carriage Co., and that person was at the counter-protest. Whether or not he is in fact Mike Slocum, we're trying to determine.
You don't need to ask someone, which is why I didn't bother to give you a description of Mr. Slocum because I doubt you would of taken my word. You can use this fancy mechanical box in front of you and do a search, I'm sure his picture is out there I've seen him being photographed.
I can claim do be Ingrid Newkirk or Alex Pacheco maybe doesn't make me them. And Mr. Slocum has a right to be there defending his business from being unduly maligned.
yes, he has the right to be out there…and the financial interest to be there, too. Which brings us back to the original premise, that the horse people are the only ones getting paid.
Now, you've yet to determine whether Mr. Slocum was there or not, I think it unlikely but I won't say he was there or not though I didn't see him. Not that I'm claiming that he wasn't there, only I didn't see him.
, you keep switching between drivers and horse people.
Scroll up, and you'll see I've explained this all before, you still can't admit when your wrong. Sad.
Now you are playing games
So if you mean Horse people as in drivers, of course they got paid for their days work, most business tend to pay their employees. I don't know why but employees that get paid for working tend to come back, while those that don't… don't.
But if you are saying Horse people meaning the Pro-carriage then no, not one of them recieved any payment. Nor would they. You need to get your facts straight or really just talk facts, Falsehoods, slander, assaults on people's character do you and your group no credit, but continue to invalidate your position by launching baseless accusations
Horse people in my first post was referring to the horse carriage drivers and the pro-horse carriage drivers. Sorry to be unclear. The "horse people" was not my term, and I wouldn't use it again.
I haven't been found to be wrong yet so there isn't a need to correct – as I wrote, I am not sure about Slocum – a man identifying himself as the owner of 76 Carriage Co. was at the counter-protest. Whether that is in fact Mike Slocum – who is the owner of 76 Carriage Co., or at least reported to be – or someone identifying himself as Mike Slocum, is unknown at this point. If I am wrong about him being there, I'll correct myself. There is also someone name Michael Kaatz (sp?) who fills out the permits and asks as a spokesperson at times for 76 Carriage Co. Is Michael Kaatz and Michael Slocum the same person? hmmm….
Are you seriously suggesting that there can't be more than one person in the pro-horse group named Mike? Heck, there used to be a carriage horse named Mike, too, before he retired! (Plus a good half dozen drivers named Mike over the past few years.)
Anyway, the horse people aren't getting paid to protest – the carriage drivers are at work and not participating.
It's the anti-horse people who are using their so-called volunteerism to claim more status, as if not getting paid makes up for lack of first-hand knowledge.
There's a reason there's a difference between "professional" and "amateur."
@the draft horse -
no. The question is whether the gentleman who identified himself as the "owner of the 76 Carriage Co." is Michael Slocum. When eavesdropping on a conversation between Park Service rangers and activists, he was asked to move back, and identified by a protester as "Michael Slocum." This person then said, "That's not my name."
Since then, we have shown this gentleman's photo to someone who knows him, and that person identified him as Michael Slocum. Why he is claiming to Park Service rangers that "Michael Slocum" is not his name, is a mystery.
And I think you're either being deliberately obtuse, or just not understanding what it means to "get paid." The horse carriage industry is for-profit. People like the drivers and the owners and employees of the carriage company are getting paid. through that industry. When they show up to support the industry, they are also protecting their livelihood. Although they might not be getting paid at that exact moment for doing that particular thing, their paycheck is contingent upon the continued existence of the industry,
The protesters have no financial interest in ending the horse-carriage industry. Whether or not it continues will make no difference to their bottom line, unlike some of those counter-protesting. The only interest of the protesters is the best interest of the horses, as they see it. You might disagree with that, but the fact is that no one from the protesting side is making a penny off the protest or the horses or anything to do with the situation.
Hope this helps!
And just to correct another lie from the pro-carriage people -
the draft horse wrote: "Anyway, the horse people aren't getting paid to protest – the carriage drivers are at work and not participating"
In reality, some of the carriage drivers DID participate. If you need photos, let me know.
This is a Classic case of blame the victim. If they weren't there that old man wouldn't have used his car like a battering ram and tried to obliterate everything in his path, b/c he was upset that a carriage only travels 4-6 mphs.
And the last Carriage driver in the line suggestion that he just pass them was so insulting that his actions were justified. we know the other two lanes of traffic aren't as nice as the one the carriages occupied.
And all this talk of exploitation, though we're talking horses, its Bull.
Most of these horses have between 1400-2000 lbs on their partners(drivers)if they didn't want to go to work that day, there is nothing that they could do to make them. Its not exploitation its a partnership, an exchange of goods and services for the betterment of the other. In exchange for food, shelter, clean bedding, grooming, Vet care, Ferrying and Dental, and that is whether or not they work that day. Plus the 3 to 4 month Vacation they get Every year to do just what you want for them.
We get them to pull for us a cart that weighs between 800-1200lbs, depending on breed a horse can easily pull 2-3x their weight. Its not like they are using square wheels, you or I can pull a carriage, all day, and if allowed I would ask the company for the chance to prove it w/ passengers. While I may not be able to take a full carriage on some hills I am only an 8th of a horse's size and proportional strength.
When you ask to "Ban Carriage Horses" you ask to ban their purpose in life, this is what they were born to do. Take away anyone's purpose if life and you take away their reason to live. Who doesn't love at least toying with the idea of doing nothing all day, everyday, with nothing to do but eat and rest, eat and rest, eat and rest. Retirement kills, just from shear boredom. And that is what you'd condemn these horses to if try to rob them of their purpose in life.
Circus workers call the animals in circus their "partners" too. It's just as inappropriate as using it with the horses shackled to the carriages.
Shackles really? And I suppose they have ball and chain attached too?
There is a big difference between working with your partner, and forcing an animal to perform for the amusement of all. The bond these Drivers is real, each relying on the other to make it through the day together.
So why can't you stay on topic, slavery circus, what will you use next to prop up your flimsy argument next?
Just pointing out that in fact, it is a flimsy argument to claim that horses and drivers are "partners" and that same argument is used by circuses. Ringling Bros. also says that elephants can't be forced to do anything they don't want to do, and that the bond between the trainers and the animals is real. The carriage drivers are forcing the horses to give rides. The circus folks are forcing the animals to do tricks. Both are for the amusement of humans, no other reason, and both need to end.
no more flimsy than your arguments of slavery and shackles, circuses horse whispering and just about every other post you've made to and including this one. Yet some how Horse racing is ok in your eyes, which to me invalidates your entire position.
Horse racing is not okay.
Horse drawn carriages are entertainment, just like animals in the circus, and there is no difference between forcing an animal to drag around tourists all day on city streets or trek them around the country in boxcars to do silly tricks. Both are unnecessary and done only for profit, and need to end now.
Marina, honestly there is a big difference between animals performing in a circus, and carriage horses doing what they were meant to do.
If you can't see the difference then your being blinded by your ideology.
So what is an acceptable use for horses? I'm curious to see how far your position goes. Is there nothing that horses can do that you find acceptable other than convert grass to fertilizer?
Horses are amazing animals who deserve to live as horses. Protect the horses living in the wild in the west, and let the ones in captivity live out their lives at sanctuaries and refuges. I respect and admire horses a great deal. I just don't think they are a mealticket, as the drivers do.
wonderfully said brian… these horses are bred to work and they are happy. they know when they get they're harness on that they are going to work and if they really didnt want to do it they wouldn't.
Slaves didn't want to be forced to do anything, but where trained to do so through punishments. People thought slaves were born for the purpose of doing what they did. We look back and all agree that it was wrong.
Do you really think horses were born to drive people around the block for hours each day? If so, God must really have it out for them.
they were bred to work and pull vehicles…they have been doing so for thousands of years
imagine – who is breeding these horses? Are they breeding themselves?
Its extremely rare, if not immaculate conception area, for geldings to breed w/ other geldings.
So, these horses are breeding naturally? They're out in a pasture, and choose to breed, and then romp into the city of Philadelphia to be harnessed onto a carriage to give rides because they choose to work?
its been bred in them for centuries and centuries…it is instictual for them to work…just like certain breeds of dog were bred to do certain things…and it has become instinct because it goes back thousands of generations
Actually, yes. While most cattle are born by artificial insemination, it is against the rules of most horsemen's organizations which require natural breeding only. A
Wow, so the horses come in from the pastures into Philly to give rides to tourists naturally? Which exit of I-95 or the Schuylkill do they use? I'd like to see that!
Actually as we discussed they aren't allowed on the highway nor should they be, they use surface streets, back roads, or go over land.
So, how do they get from the pasture to the middle of the city if the breeding is all natural?
well I don't think its my place to explain the birds and the bees to you, try asking mom and dad because if you're asking these questions it might be time for you to learn about it.
Nice cop-out.
But the sad thing is that horses will continue to be killed when they are no longer profitable for humans as long as humans keep breeding them. Ending the horse-drawn carriage industry will go a long way towards reducing the demand for them (in other words, as a profit-making attraction) and in turn, the supply.
Cop-out nothing. You were being facetious and I was merely playing along as far as you wanted to take the breeding question.
And ending Carriage horses will do nothing to stop the breeding of horses, there are other markets for horse flesh other than work. All ending the carriages will do is make sure none of the horses that are condemned to the butcher will be saved by going to the carriages.
Are you so callous that you'd prefer death for horses rather than a easy job that keeps them well fed?
I disagree that the choices are death and forced labor in congested city traffic. That's only if the drivers refuse to work with us to find good lifetime homes, of which we have already found some. And we're sure that if the drivers care about the horses the way you claim they do, that would never happen anyway.
I'm sure we would all choose to live in a sanctuary and be allowed to do as we pleased day in and day out. It's just not realistic. Who will pay for the sanctuaries? How will these horses be fed and groomed and cared for? By volunteers? Have you ever tried to round up volunteers for actual labor? It's tough – it is much easier to get people to come out and protest, they get to be on t.v. and wave signs and stop and take a break when they feel like it. But try getting those same people to clean stalls and carry feed buckets and water buckets and plow fields to plant grass and buy hay and deliver horses to new homes…wow, let me tell you, when it involves real work, day in and day out – because horses eat every single day, 365 days a year…it's much harder to be involved. Try getting people to donate enough money to move one single horse out of the slaughter pens and into a home that's willing to take them..that's very very hard. It cost me almost $1100.00 to save and transport one single horse from the slaughter pens in NJ to my farm in FL. That doesn't include the veterinary bills, the farrier bills and my feed and hay and of course, my time. Do you have that money to give to a horse? And if you do…do you have the time and the space and the love to handle that horse every day, even knowing that he will never be perfectly healthy again. The horse I took in has foundered, he was almost 300 lbs underweight and he'd been abused. No carriages involved in this one, BUT he's still injured. I will care for him for the rest of his life. What will you do?
Ending the horse-drawn carriage industry will reduce the demand for horses and reduce the breeding of them. There are sanctuaries that will take some of the horses, and work is being done to take more of them. But thank for recognizing that a sanctuary life is a much better one than hauling around tourists in all kinds of weather on congested city streets. We agree and will continue to help the horses get there.
Not true again, most of the horses used in the carriage industry were not specifically bred to pull a carriage in urban areas. They were bred mainly in Amish country to plow and haul. The Amish breeders tend to use the horses until they are approximately 9-10 years old and then they are sent to auction or sold privately to log environmentally sensitive lands or to pull carriages. Of course some do go to private owners as back-yard pets. So if you really want to jump on someone, drive up to Amish country. I'm pretty sure they're not reading your posts.
I love the carriage industry. I think that in this world there are very few careers which allow you to work closely with such a wonderful animal. I love the draft breeds, I own several myself. Two of which come from Camelot auctions in NJ, straight from the kill-pens. I'm in the trenches too – working to help these animals. But they have to be realistic trenches and honestly, a working animal is much more valuable to this world than a non-working animal. Especially in this economic climate. People can not afford to keep these draft breeds as pets…so they're destroyed or starved to death or tossed into the kill-pens and shipped to Canada. If a few can be kept out of the pens, by working with a carriage service or private owner, than I am prepared to believe that it's best. I've worked in the carriage industry since 1992 and I've seen good and bad. But I can honestly tell you that the majority of the people love the horses. They work with them because they love them. It's not a "get rich" field of work, believe me. I know that I've taken in two draft kill-pen rescues because I love them, not because I want to "enslave them and make money off of them." I drive my horses, but I also brush them and pet them and feed them and water them and turn them out and buy hay for them and fix fences and make sure there's enough shade and fly-spray for the summer and muck stalls (which are 14X14 with runs off of the back
and I vet them and I have their hooves trimmed or shod every 5.5 weeks, so believe me, I work for them too.
I don't see where Kelly agreed to such, on the matter of sanctuaries. I believe she said it was unrealistic, and made no mention of carriages pulling tourists around in a carriage that is easily manageable, heck I can pull one around, and I'm no where the size or strength of even the smallest or youngest of the carriage horses. As for all kinds of weather, I'm curious, does this sanctuary have a dome? You do know that horses would be out in all kinds of weather in the wild anyway.
Kelly – it sounds like you take good care of your horse. That's not the issue. And to answer your question – what I will do is continue to work on ending the cycle of exploitation of horses for use as tourist entertainment. It's a sad life for horses – prey animals with diverse social needs – and the only way to reduce and ultimately end the number of horses without good homes is to help end the demand for them -like for horse-drawn carriages – which in turn will reduce the supply. I think your one-at-a-time rescue is commendable, but doesn't address the big picture. I'm a big picture kind of gal.
Marina- thank you, I do take good care of my horses, all five of them.
I take good care of them because I love horses. I also take good care of them because I am able to. I am able to take good care of them because they work and help me to support them. I own a carriage service.
I try to use only rescue/retired drafts in my business for several reasons. First, I want to help the draft horse – I don't want them to go to slaughter, I don't want them to starve to death in someone's back yard because that person can not afford to feed them. Second, the retired/rescued drafts tend to be seasoned and well-mannered and since I (like most carriage businesses) don't work long hours, the aged horses are perfect for me. We allow our horses to work for a maximum of three hours at a time, no more than four days a week. Granted, the service in Philly is a little different, but we all care for our animals.
I am only able to work with rescue organizations like Blue Star Equiculture and adopt or re-home unwanted, starved, abused or neglected draft horses because I can afford to. I can only afford to because they work. So if my one-at-a-time-rescue is not quite up to par with your "big picture" than maybe you can "big picture" this…the very industry that you despise, the carriage industry, has spawned some of the most amazing and loving and helping-horses-one-at-a-time sort of people that I have ever met. We are talking about people who dedicate their lives, their money and their days, every single day, to helping the animals that you say you're trying to save. They do more for the horses in one day than your "big picture" methods do in years of protesting. The majority of those people are carriage drivers or carriage owners. Once you've worked beside the amazing animals, you can't help but love them. Truly.
Two more quick notes.
I am a woman and I'm 5'4" and I can pull a vis-a-vis with four adults and a driver on it quite easily on level paved ground. Period. My smallest horse weighs over eight times my body weight. The work is not hard and it's quite a bit easier physically than carrying a rider. Ask your vet.
Two – Brian McCabe and Illustsrious Potentate, I would be very proud to stand beside either of you in a counter-protest. It's so nice to see that our side is well-spoken and doesn't resort to name-calling or "carriages suck!"
Big picture but short sighted. Kelly is rescuing horses that actually need saving, while you are trying to rob horses of their purpose.
We are trying to change the mindset that horses require a purpose and "job"- instead, we think that horses being horses IS their purpose. They don't need to drag tourists around to justify their existence. To promote as you do that horses need to have "jobs" is backwards thinking – right in line with the Amish. Yes, this is big picture and long term. But that is the only way true change is ever made. Kelly is saving lives of horses that are already here – and that is great. I've done so as well. But I'm also trying to change things so that we no longer have horses that need saving, and ending the horse-drawn carriage industry and the mindset that horses need "jobs" is one way I am doing that.
We're never going to agree on this, and we both think we are helping animals. I respect your opinion, although I think you are wrong.
And it should be noted that the only ones who have done any name-calling or insulting here are the pro-carriage horse people (expressing an opinion that carriage rides suck isn't directed towards anyone and is certainly not the most eloquent expression of that opinion, but rather effective shorthand for the sentiment). That's the same thing we encounter at our protests too – the only ones name-calling and insulting are the drivers.
Look just because the Amish stopped advancing technology wise since the early part of the 1800s doesn't mean they are backward thinking, just because they won't see this post doesn't give you the right to insult their way of life. If your trying to make it so that horses don't need saving than your job was accomplished b4 you got here. These are some pretty saved horses, no worries about food or shelter, or medical care.
You seem to think the horse market is there mainly to supply horses for carriages, in reality its but a fraction.
Just like Being can't be work, your purpose can't be simply being. Number 1 purpose for every living thing on this planet is to continue their species, none of these horses are able to meet that requirement.
Now you say 'Mind set' I think we're getting somewhere. Since its not about safety, or care, or purpose, or where they come from, or where they should go, or what if any use is acceptable, its about your mind set. A Vegan mind set. its your Vegan ideals that doesn't allow you to see beyond the horse, to see that work isn't anti-animal.
And you say no one among you and your group has been engaged in name calling? You yourself have called me a liar more than once, also mocked my reading comprehension when my comment got mixed up between you and jackie as the one with horse racing friends. There are also your constant slandering of the drivers when you were misquoted then proceeded to use and rehash the misquote to slander drivers.
You can rationalize all you please, but the only ones here who have insulted and called names are the supporters of the horse-drawn carriage industry.
And that is the same way it has been at every single one of our protests.
Marina,
You sound like a big picture kind of gal, who doesn't get involved in details, like shoveling poop, keeping clean water supplies, and proper pasturing and socializing with any horses at all.
Ill-Pot- I've seen horses in the wild and none of that is necessary for them. It's amazing how self-sufficient they are when they aren't used to make money for humans.
I think the horse protesters are very nasty, and don't seem to care about the horses or people that drive them. I used to fox hunt in Devon, years ago, and had horses of my own. The horses that pull the carriages are very well-taken care of and groomed. I don't think the protestors even look at the horses. They are a nuisance and I hope they quit their agenda and get out of my neighborhood soon. We're tired of seeing you. Why don't you do something more intelligible and "save Tibet" or take a tour and learn some history. They can't be from Philadelphia because philadelphians are tired of seeing them.
Figures that someone who terrorizes beautiful foxes for entertainment would support the horse-drawn carriage industry.
I don't see how that figures, but I know you wouldn't agree with hunting to begin with. And who is personifying now, you know for a fact the fox was being terrorized? Are you then claiming wild animals terrorize each other, the predator prey relationship isn't the fight for survival but a conscious act of terror?
While I don't hunt, I have no illusions of where my food comes from.
As for hunting, I'm against hunting for sport, but for food and that you do your best that no part of the animal goes to waste i can fully sport, even though I don't engage in the practice.
Google fox hunting, Brian. Then come back.
Googled it, didn't see anywhere people that hunt foxes routinely support carriage horses. Check a couple of the links, and still didn't see the staunch support for the carriages. As I said I don't agree with hunting for sport, and I think if asked you get the same answer from any of the carriage horse people.
Brian – please reread this thread again from the beginning, and then tell me what you don't understand about my post in response to Grammie's where she identifies herself as a fox hunter who supports horse-drawn carriages.
Did still seems like your painting another group with a large brush. But whatever, though it seems the Foxes need your help more urgently.
Many animals (including humans) need urgent help. We all choose which battles to fight. Some people would say spending an afternoon standing in support of carriage horse drivers would be time better spent helping starving children.
And some would say the same about those protesting carriage horses, is time wasted that could be used to help starving children… So after you my dear Marina.
You were the one who said the foxes needed my help – I choose to help the horses instead. I would never suggest that you spend your time another way…all you counter-protesters just make our demo look that much bigger! So I hope you'll be there EVERY week!
Members of PAN are not any more informed than anyone else, it's simply them trying to push their opinion on anyone who will listen.
They "believe" that horses shouldn't work and are being exploited, that it's slavery. So banning the industry so these animal can become more of the numerous horses slaughtered every year because they are unwanted.
Great idea, meanwhile the wild mustangs are being rounded up and sold off because there is no land for all of them.
Doesn't seem to be solving any problems to me.
There are sanctuaries that are willing to take the horses in. They would not be slaughtered, unless the carriage companies sold them to slaughter after the ban was put in place. The horse advocates aim to end the exploitation of these horses in Philadelphia for good, so no more are exploited in the future. Horses were not born to be enslaved to carry tourist around the block for hours everyday.
Not true Jason, honestly. Take in a horse of your own from the hundreds that go to slaughter every week. Look at the photos and videos of these horses who've been starved and thrown away. It's heartbreaking. There aren't enough sanctuaries and the ones that exist are underfunded. Send them some money – take in a horse – BUT if activities involving horses in urban areas are banned, the problem doesn't cease to exist. It multiplies. These draft breeds that the carriage companies use are not generally sold as pleasure horses – who wants a 2000lb driving horse? The working horse helps to support himself and educate people of his existance. How many urban people would be able to come close to these wonderful animals if the services no longer existed? The cars are dangerous – read the articles…drivers on suspended licenses, drivers with open containers…hmmmm….
if there were a ban on carriage horses the existing horses would not be sent to slaughter (we would all do our best to find them new homes. what i think con ngua is trying to say is that carriage horses are horses that were saved from kill pens and if there were a ban there would be alot more horses slaughtered every year because they wouldn't be getting saved to work on carriages
If there was a ban on horse-drawn carriages, a for-profit industry, then the demand for horses will decrease and in turn breeding them will decrease. Despite the claims of some here to the contrary, these horses aren't breeding naturally out in the pasture and strolling into the city to volunteer to drag around tourists. Humans are breeding them to sell them to be used to make money. Only when the market for them dries up, will the supply (breeding) also decrease.
I don't see anywhere where someone said that the carriage horses (mostly geldings, not sure if there is a mare among them or not) are going out of town to a love shack breeding then coming back.
But your right if they are breeding its unnatural for geldings to breed, unless someone missed snipping something.
And again ending carriage horses does nothing to decrease the breeding of horses, those that are bred would just be sent to another market.
You seem to think that ending the carriages is some kind of miracle tonic that will decrease breeding, stop the thinning of the herds of horses in the west, receding hairlines, liver spots and flatulence.
An how many times do you need it to be explained, I mean I know your group is a non-profit but geez, For the record, a business is in the business of making profits (money), Profits are seen as positive income (more money coming in than is spent to do business).
So show me a business that has no interest in making profits, and I'll show you a commercial property that will soon be available.
Wild horses are also hunted for sport from helicopters. Where these "peace advocates" need to be is in Nevada protesting that, instead of in Philadelphia DISTURBING THE PEACE!
We'll continue to try to help the horses in our backyards as well as the horses in the west. We can do both. Here is a great link about the horses in the west for those who want to join us:
http://humanitythrougheducation.com/
Absolutely false about the horses being rounded up in the west because there is no land for them – there is PLENTY of room for them – they are being rounded up because the BLM made a horrific decision to do so based on pressure from the agricultural lobby. Once again, PLEASE get your facts straight – this website is a good start in explaining the situation with the horses in the western U.S.
http://humanitythrougheducation.com/
Sounds like elnet is the one who is misinformed. Although Peace Advocacy Network is a newly formed groups, individual members have been protesting the Horse-drawn carriages for almost a year. The most insensitive thing from today's protest? When some of the pro-carriage horse people held up signs saying "Ride for Brian and Jane," using the names of the injured drivers to try to increase sales. If that isn't tacky and insensitive, I don't know what is.
They were not trying to increase rates. Again you are mis informed…
Please stop misquoting me. I wrote "increase business" – which unquestionably is what the drivers were trying to do with a sign stating "Ride for Brian and Jane" – NOT increase rates. Whether or not the drivers use this tragic accident to increase their rates is unknown at this point.
I wasn't quoting you. And again you don't know anything about what you're trying to ban or what you're talking about. Anyway. This conversation with you is over.
Actually, I wrote "increase sales" and you wrote "increase rates." "Ride for Brian and Jane" was using the names of the carriage drivers injured in the tragic accident to promote carriage rides. I don't know if the drivers took advantage of the injured "Brian and Jane" to increase rates…Good lord, I hope not…I hadn't even thought of that…
No driver had signs saying 'Ride for Brian & Jane' those were Pro-Carriage protesters, so please get your own facts in order. And to clear up any misconception on your part or to allay your fears on if any driver would increase their rates. The Price for a carriage ride is set in stone, I know for a fact that all 76carriages have them posted on a clipboard in the carriage facing the passengers, so there isn't one of them, exploiting this "accident" to increase their profits for the day. To insinuate such is insulting at best, slanderous at the worst
So, no driver held a sign "Ride for Brian and Jane" at any point during the day? Hmmm….there is a video of a woman holding that sign and I'm pretty sure she's a driver…even if she wasn't working as a driver during the protest.
p.s. if you have a problem with the "increasing rates" allegation, take it up with elnet…It hadn't even occurred to me that drivers would do that. I'm glad to hear that they are prevented from doing so.
that is correct, no driver carried a sign 'Ride for Brian & Jane' all the drivers were busy working that day, they and their horse take their days off during the week. The woman you are referring to does not work for the carriages.
As for taking exception with your increased rates comment, elnet misquoted you as you said, but you perpetuating the misquote intentionally to disparage drivers.
The whole 'I don't know if the drivers took advantage of the injured "Brian and Jane" to increase rates' and 'Good lord, I hope not…I hadn't even thought of that… (sad face)' is you perpetuating the misqoute intentionally in a slanderous manner.
And 'I'm glad they are prevented from doing so' is so much phony outrage again slandering them,implying they would do so if given the opption.
The only one trying to profit from this tragic "accident" is PAN.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Holding a sign "Ride for Brian and Jane" can only mean one thing: take a carriage ride and increase the sales of the carriage horse company because two riders got injured.
And unlike the counter-protesters, who showed up only this week, those working to help get the horses off the streets have been protesting for over a year, at least once a month, if not more. The only ones exploiting this tragedy to try to increase business, if not rates, and get sympathy is the horse-drawn carriage industry – and the only ones getting paid, for that matter.
PAN is a non-profit… In other words… they are not looking to make a profit. The carriage industry is a profit seeking business, and is why they got their family and friends to stick up for the industry when they should really be thinking if horse carriages were banned in Philadelphia, they wouldn't be in the hospital right now. I am sorry they are in the hospital and I wish this didn't happen to them. I hope they have a speedy recovery. No one wants to see anyone hurt just like no one should want to see animals forced to give carriage rides for hours each day.
And that is the clincher, when your argument falls apart, you 'agree to disagree' but you don't.
and what does the length of how long a person has been protesting have to do with the legitimacy of their grievance that calls them to the protest? That alone should tell you that the people who 'just showed up this week' were there for their fallen friends, and it was drivers that were injured not riders, and it actually was 3 drivers, but Brian and Jane were seriously injured requiring hospitalization, and they will remain so for some time, the third diver injured her knee and will be out of work at least a week or more.
And still you continue with the "increase rates" when you claim to have been misquoted originally, as for just showing up this week, maybe that is because the "accident" just happened this week, or its because you decided to exploit this "accident" for your group's profit, but your right, we did want to gain some sympathy for Brian and Jane for it seems that you and your group have none.
And you'll have to tell the Pro-carriage protesters where to go or sign up to get those pay checks, because each and everyone of them were happy to be there for Brian and Jane, and if someone is willing to pay for something they'd happily do for free, then I'm sure any money these people could receive would go directly to Brian & Jane, because the pro-carriage people wouldn't accept a penny.
And Jason, I'm sure PAC is a Non-profit, but Non-profit doesn't mean you don't have bills to pay, operations like this sanctuary to fund, right?
or that all profits are monetary. And of course the Carriages are a profit seeking business, you show me a business that doesn't seek profits and I'll show a commercial property that will soon be available. And I'm not sure how you can both blame them for being involved in the "accident" and wish them well with your next breathe.
Does your hypocrisy know no bounds?
@ Brian – the timeliness of the protesting matters here because there is a claim that the pro-horse people were only protesting because of the accident. The fact is that the COUNTER-protesters were only there because of the accident. The pro-horse people have been demonstrating on behalf of the horses for over a year. And no one got paid anything – the only one to profit from the protests/counter protests was the horse-drawn carriage industry, who used the tragedy to try to increase sales of carriage rides – which I found really tacky and insensitive.
First off, Nice Rebranding, going from anti-carriage to Pro-horse. The only problem with that is we are both Pro-horse, the breakdown is pro-carriage horse and anti-carriage horse.
Secondly the claim wasn't that you were only there because of the "accident" but that you would be exploiting the "accident" to further your own agenda.
But if time in matters so much to you I'll come to the next one, see you next time at the protest/counter protest.
And again you're trying to claim that the carriages profited from the "Accident" and used it to increase the money that they made, well at least you stopped misquoting about increasing their rates thats a start.
You didn't find it tacky or insensitive to hold your protest mere feet from them instead of a more highly visible area, a more high traffic area of people? Or did you want to be closer hoping to instigate someone to lose their cool, perhaps create a climate for another to be possible? No, I'm not saying you would intentionally hope to cause that kind of destruction, but I wouldn't put it pass you to intentionally create an atmosphere which would cause a driver to paint themselves in a bad light.
Since we're protesting horse-drawn carriages, we stand in the proximity of the horse-drawn carriages. If high foot traffic was the only concern, we would go to Center City during the lunch hour on nice day during the week.
I didn't include the rates issue because I don't know if the drivers tried to get more money on Saturday – you claimed they didn't, so I was ready to drop it. But you keep bringing it up. So once again – All I know is that the pro-carriage ride people held signs saying "Ride for Brian and Jane" to try to get people to take rides which would then mean more sales, more profit, more dollars for the horse-drawn carriage companies. I don't know if the drivers tried to increase their rates exploiting the tragedy.
Again with the "increase rates" but I'll get to that in a moment.
Proximity does not necessarily mean with in reach, the only reason to be that close is to hope you can provoke another incident by your presence. There are plenty of better locations to safely protest that provide you with both proximity and High foot traffic, while at the same time providing for safety and proper distance for all involved. While I'm sure city hall at high noon, would provide excellent foot traffic, I don't think you get anymore people interested in your position, than in the historic district.
Now back to your repeated use of 'increased rates'
you've gone from being misquoted originally to using the misquote as an attack, even though you've repeatedly been corrected on that point. You are now starting to own that misquote, when you use it not once but twice to defame these drivers.
I've corrected myself when I was incorrect on some point, like you thinking horse racing is ok but carriages are not, when it was Jackie that has horse racing friends that agree with the ban, or at least they do till your group turns its attention to the track. Your friends just go to the track, and agree with the ban because it doesn't effect them.
So once again, Those that were carrying signs that said 'Ride for Brian & Jane' were there to support of their fallen friends and for other to show their support them and their lack of support for your position. As for increasing business the carriages did no more, no less business then they would have on any other saturday. If anyone was directing business toward the Carriages it was your presence. Lastly as I pointed out to you their prices are set in stone, and posted on a clipboard facing the riders for all passengers to see.
In conclusion your attempts to intentionally use this misquote, to launch baseless attacks is beneath you, I've been more than happy to correct myself when I attributed a statement to you that was actually Jackie's, time for you to correct yourself.
Understand your claim, Brian, but I wouldn't put anything past someone who charges $2.00 to feed carrots to a horse.
And you're entitled to your opinion, but the fact is there is no better place to raise awareness of the horse-drawn carriage industry and educate people on it then right by the horses. I understand the drivers don't like protesters there, and they might want to instigate something. But that doesn't mean the protesters should have to move. Nothing happened (except for the driver who had to be physically restrained) despite everyone standing inches from each other. And everyone was able to get their message out.
Well, then your friend either caught someone on a bad day, or just didn't want to deal with your friend and decided to charge an unreasonable price (was it your friend's carrot or the drivers), or maybe that driver was just a dick (pardon the language) did your friend ask another driver, but you see there is a greater problem than that particular driver. Again you slander them all, because of something you heard 2nd hand about the actions of one. Bad form Marina, bad form.
You can make excuses for the drivers until you turn blue, but the fact remains that a driver wanted to charge my friend $2.00 to feed carrots to the horse. As I wrote before, I wouldn't put past anything from someone like that, including raising rates to exploit the tragic accident.
There has been no slander here, and your claims that there has been are defamatory in themselves.
No, one is making excuses, I'm telling you either your friend caught someone on a bad, which still doesn't make it right, or that particular driver was being a dick (again pardon the language)
I'm not excusing the driver's action, but I'll not allow you to slander all of them for the action of one. And its not defamatory to point out when you purposely choose to make false and or malicious statements injurious to those drivers reputation, or slander. Like your repeated use of being misquoted in order to portray the drivers in such a way, by saying 'I don't know if any drivers did, or good lord I didn't even think that'
is doing just that by raising the accusation by trying, and poorly I might add, of distancing yourself by playing dumb saying I don't but…, its like saying I don't know if Santa has a drinking problem but man his nose sure is red.
Defensive much? I'm entitled to my opinion (and that isn't slander or libel, no matter how many times you toss the word around) about the horse-drawn carriage industry.
I don't know how many other drivers charge $2.00 to feed a horse a carrot, and I don't care – you think I should care. Fine. I don't know whether a driver tried to raise rates to exploit the tragedy, and I don't care. I know that pro-carriage horse people held signs trying to get people to "ride for Brian and Jane," which to me is very exploitative of the tragedy. You don't think I should feel that way. Fine. None of this makes what I think "slander," and again – it's defamatory for YOU to keep claiming that it is.
WHOA, reread your post and you claim I'm being defensive. I can almost hear how hard you're hitting that period key that I think my own might be getting hand shy
you sound more than a little defensive yourself, and a a bit angry, its not my intent to upset you, so lets take a calming breath before we continue.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, as wrong as it may be in my opinion, No one is claiming you can't speak your mind. In print its libel, spoken its slander, now seeing that we are typing this, technically it would be libel, but its also a online thread on a message board, which has more of a conversation feel, so its a bit of a gray area in deciding on libel vs. slander.
Ok thats it, sorry but I must deduct another point from your score card, and thats the last time you'll be warned about keeping the gloves up, next time its a DQ.
Really again, with the "increase rates"?
You do know that now you officially own your misquote, its what you said "Fine. I don't know whether a driver tried to raise rates to exploit the tragedy, and I don't care." and no longer someone misquoting you. It is slanderous, in my opinion, but thats only from reading the definition of slander.
You see, you mention "not knowing" then lump in all the other drivers with what you say one driver did to a friend of yours, and accuse the rest of them of possibly doing the same. Although you don't have knowledge of such actions. Its like me saying that I don't know if my neighbor beats his wife, but a friend of mine his neighbor did. Now not only have I slandered my neighbor there but that of my friend, because I made a statement to the fact that even though I claim not to have that knowledge. I have slandered him by making a malicious statement that will injure his reputation.
You claiming that other drivers might be charging to feed their horse, or that some drivers may have increase rates to exploit this "accident" is harmful to their reputation, which by definition is slander.
You need to review the elements for defamation. I can opine and conjecture all I want. You don't like it, that's understood, so you whine "slander" or "libel" when it isn't even close.
Here are the facts, once again: a carriage driver tried to charge my friend $2.00. From what I've seen of the behavior of the carriage drivers (knocking over signs, calling protesters names, trying to instigate a fight, having to be physically restrained by park service rangers, carrying posters with statements that are defamatory, etc. etc. etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if that was a standard procedure for some of them, if not most. And yes – again with the rates – I don't know if anyone has tried to charge more to exploit the tragic accident – but based on the behavior of the drivers, I wouldn't be surprised at that either.
Wait, its a fact now? When did that happen? I guess I missed the breaking news bulletin.
Then I guess you'll be able to provide "Proof" allegations? Sure you can Opine and conjecture all you want, but not with facts. Facts ARE, or they are NOT Facts, there is no middle ground. So that means you were there when your friend encountered an unreasonable charge. You didn't hear it about it second hand? And that you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that drivers engaged in what you called "rate increases"? there can be no "i don't know if anyone did" or "my friend said that a driver tried to charge that to feed"
And you know what your saying is indeed slander, because you know in our society that accusations carry weight, until they are proven untrue even though its innocent till proven guilty.
And if all you have to back up your "FACTS" is the drivers reactions to being protested I think you need to go check the definition of 'fact' .
Brian wrote:
"And that you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that drivers engaged in what you called 'rate increases'?"
No – do you? And I wasn't the person who brought up "rate increases," better re-read this thread.
I wrote based on what I've seen first hand of the driver's behavior, and based on what my friend has seen, I wouldn't be surprised if in addition to promoting "Ride for Brian and Jane," the drivers or pro-horse-drawn carriage people would also attempt to raise rates to exploit the tragedy.
Look you no Jane Goodeall, so lets leave the observations to the professionals. Yes I do have proof to negate your claims of increased rates, yes I know you were misquoted originally but you've repeated it enough times and with different spins to own it, its no longer a misquote.
And my proof is the clipboard on the carriage facing the passengers combined with the fact that anyone who tried any monkey business would have that ride taken away from them by the nearest driver in line just by say the real prices. But that evidence pales in comparison to this one. You/your group were there, I'm sure you've heard the prices, you're standing mere feet away… I'm sure if you heard such shenanigans going on you'd be duty bound to provide that info to the public with unmistakable proof of it going on. Not Implications, hearsay, or slander, opines, conjectures, or observations, but Facts.
We don't listen to the drivers unless if we can avoid it, so we don't know what they are saying to customers, usually – (or of course, when they're screaming insults at us, that's hard to miss, too).
And you're the last person whose word I would accept – you've lied so many times on this page alone that I lost track long ago.
"The most insensitive thing from today's protest?When some of the pro-carriage horse people held up signs saying "Ride for Brian and Jane," using the names of the injured drivers to try to increase sales." are you sure that was the most insensitive thing from the protest? I couldn't have been protesting Carriages ten feet from them knowing many of them may be suffering from shell shock(PTSS), or using images from the horrific "accident" to reopen fresh wounds, that haven't even clotted let alone scab over and being to heal.
Now I know its not always easy to get the gist of a protest sign when it doesn't use shocking and hurtful images, so I'll spell it out for you.
'Ride for Brian & Jane' is asking people to show their support for the drivers involved in the accident and their lack of support for your position.
As for increasing "Business"? Lets look at who was increasing business for who. Those that were working for the carriages did no more, no less business than they would have done on a typical Saturday. And it was actually PAN that increased business, b/c no matter how many 'Ride for Brian & Jane' signs people carried no one would know or care why they should ride to support them till they see you Exploiting Brian & Jane while making know mention of them or the true cause of the "accident" only that it was their fault for being there.
Now if you still feel that "Ride for Brian & Jane" is too comerical, then we can take care of that, how about 'Show your support for Brian & Jane, pet a carriage horse, Because they would if they could' or is that still exploiting them in your world?
typo know should have been no, my apologies to english teachers every where, have also been transposing I and A all day, so Brian may be Brain somewhere in one of those posts