Comments on: Pet, Dinner, Research Subject – Our Complicated Relationship with Animals http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514 News and Information from WHYY in Philadelphia Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:54:03 -0400 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: jerry B http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-1562 jerry B Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:13:05 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-1562 recently whyy did a radio piece on animal testing that included success rates of 10 % for companies that do this and a little know fact that animal testers puncture ear drums of song birds with no anesthesia. This is torture flat out, no doubt. I am looking for producer of this story and the people interviewed so I can write my congressman with details. This was no more than a week or so ago. Please help, my email is <span id="enkoder_0_662204200">email hidden; JavaScript is required</span><script type="text/javascript"> /* <!-- */ function hivelogic_enkoder_0_662204200() { var kode="kode=\"110 114 103 104 64 37 114 110 104 103 95 37 64 52 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 55 57 54 35 35 58 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 53 52 35 51 51 52 35 53 51 52 35 55 52 52 35 53 52 52 35 60 52 52 35 54 53 52 35 53 60 55 52 35 59 51 52 35 58 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 60 52 60 35 35 56 58 54 55 35 35 54 54 57 60 35 35 56 56 60 54 35 35 56 51 52 35 51 52 52 35 58 51 52 35 58 51 52 35 56 51 52 35 55 56 60 60 35 35 56 55 57 52 35 53 52 60 35 35 56 58 54 52 35 59 51 52 35 51 51 52 35 60 52 52 35 52 52 57 35 35 52 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 55 51 52 35 60 52 52 35 55 52 52 35 58 51 52 35 55 52 52 35 53 60 55 52 35 55 52 52 35 55 53 52 35 52 51 52 35 54 52 52 35 58 52 57 35 35 58 51 52 35 55 51 52 35 55 53 52 35 52 51 52 35 59 52 52 35 58 52 52 35 55 53 52 35 56 60 55 52 35 54 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 52 60 35 35 56 56 60 52 35 60 52 60 35 35 56 56 60 60 35 35 56 58 54 52 35 60 51 57 35 35 56 52 52 35 58 51 52 35 55 52 52 35 53 52 52 35 55 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 55 51 52 35 52 60 55 52 35 58 52 52 35 55 53 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 52 52 35 52 53 57 35 35 58 52 52 35 58 51 52 35 55 53 52 35 56 51 52 35 59 52 52 35 54 52 52 35 55 52 52 35 54 60 55 52 35 60 52 52 35 55 51 57 35 35 54 56 60 60 35 35 56 51 52 35 51 51 56 57 35 35 56 56 60 60 35 35 56 55 55 60 35 35 56 58 54 57 35 35 53 58 54 57 35 35 53 53 52 35 54 55 57 55 35 35 53 53 55 57 35 35 53 51 52 35 56 52 52 35 55 52 52 35 58 54 55 52 35 59 51 57 35 35 55 52 56 57 35 35 53 51 52 35 59 54 57 55 35 35 54 52 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 60 55 52 35 52 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 52 52 35 57 51 52 35 60 52 52 35 58 51 55 35 35 59 53 56 55 35 35 55 53 57 52 35 59 51 55 35 35 57 55 57 56 35 35 54 55 55 52 35 57 53 52 35 54 53 55 35 35 57 55 57 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 52 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 51 55 35 35 60 51 52 35 53 51 52 35 58 51 52 35 51 52 52 35 58 59 57 52 35 60 52 55 35 35 54 51 52 35 59 57 55 56 35 35 53 55 55 55 35 35 57 52 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 60 55 52 35 53 51 52 35 58 51 52 35 51 51 52 35 58 52 57 35 35 59 52 52 35 60 54 55 52 35 59 51 55 35 35 55 53 52 35 59 52 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 55 57 52 35 54 53 55 35 35 57 54 55 52 35 59 51 57 35 35 54 52 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 60 55 52 35 52 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 52 52 35 57 51 52 35 60 52 52 35 58 51 57 35 35 57 52 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 51 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 60 55 52 35 53 51 52 35 58 51 52 35 51 51 52 35 58 52 57 35 35 59 52 52 35 60 54 55 52 35 51 52 52 35 55 52 52 35 54 51 52 35 55 51 55 35 35 60 52 52 35 52 51 52 35 55 52 52 35 54 51 52 35 57 52 52 35 60 51 52 35 58 59 55 56 35 35 53 55 55 57 35 35 52 53 55 55 35 35 53 55 55 57 35 95 37 53 110 62 103 114 64 104 114 110 104 103 118 49 111 115 119 108 95 42 43 95 42 35 62 44 64 123 95 42 95 42 105 62 117 114 108 43 51 64 108 62 110 63 103 114 49 104 104 111 106 113 107 119 108 62 46 46 126 44 46 123 86 64 117 119 113 108 49 106 117 105 112 114 107 70 117 100 114 70 104 103 115 43 117 100 104 118 113 76 43 119 114 110 104 103 108 94 44 96 54 48 128 44 114 110 104 103 123 64 62 37 62 123 64 42 42 62 105 114 117 43 108 64 51 62 108 63 43 110 114 103 104 49 111 104 113 106 119 107 48 52 44 62 108 46 64 53 44 126 123 46 64 110 114 103 104 49 102 107 100 117 68 119 43 108 46 52 44 46 110 114 103 104 49 102 107 100 117 68 119 43 108 44 128 110 114 103 104 64 123 46 43 108 63 110 114 103 104 49 111 104 113 106 119 107 66 110 114 103 104 49 102 107 100 117 68 119 43 110 114 103 104 49 111 104 113 106 119 107 48 52 44 61 42 42 44 62\";kode=kode.split(\' \');x=\'\';for(i=0;i<kode.length;i++){x+=String.fromCharCode(parseInt(kode[i])-3)}kode=x;";var i,c,x;while(eval(kode)); } hivelogic_enkoder_0_662204200(); var span = document.getElementById('enkoder_0_662204200'); span.parentNode.removeChild(span); /* --> */ </script>. Thanks recently whyy did a radio piece on animal testing that included success rates of 10
% for companies that do this and a little know fact that animal testers puncture ear drums of song birds with no anesthesia. This is torture flat out, no doubt. I am looking for producer of this story and the people interviewed so I can write my congressman with details. This was no more than a week or so ago. Please help, my email is email hidden; JavaScript is required. Thanks

]]> By: Maria http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-574 Maria Mon, 31 Aug 2009 13:45:13 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-574 John I apologize for any confusion you have about my last post. As you may know from reading my interview I am dyslexic so writing is not my forte. Can you scientists please provide us with some fact to back up your statements? I am sure that you are working very diligently to cure cancer etc. For how long has the scientific community been working on these cures? What cancers have you cured so far? How many medications that you have invented worked on animals and then made it through the human research process. How many medications were taken off the market because they were found to be unsafe for humans but worked very well on animals? About my visit to Temple, it was completely on the up and up. I am a teacher and the workshop was for teachers in the Philadelphia area. John I apologize for any confusion you have about my last post. As you may know from reading my interview I am dyslexic so writing is not my forte.
Can you scientists please provide us with some fact to back up your statements? I am sure that you are working very diligently to cure cancer etc. For how long has the scientific community been working on these cures? What cancers have you cured so far? How many medications that you have invented worked on animals and then made it through the human research process. How many medications were taken off the market because they were found to be unsafe for humans but worked very well on animals?
About my visit to Temple, it was completely on the up and up. I am a teacher and the workshop was for teachers in the Philadelphia area.

]]> By: Marina Statler http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-572 Marina Statler Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:19:18 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-572 Um...ellen...Marina and Maria are two different people. I have nothing to do with Maria. Convenient that you're bowing out of the debate before answering any questions about your posts on the excuse that you have more noble things to do like getting paid to experiment on live sentient beings. I"ve found that to be a common exit line when vivisectors are asked to provide sources for the "facts" they claim. Um…ellen…Marina and Maria are two different people. I have nothing to do with Maria.

Convenient that you're bowing out of the debate before answering any questions about your posts on the excuse that you have more noble things to do like getting paid to experiment on live sentient beings. I"ve found that to be a common exit line when vivisectors are asked to provide sources for the "facts" they claim.

]]> By: The Chef http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-568 The Chef Sun, 30 Aug 2009 14:32:13 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-568 does anyone have a good recipe for rat. I tried making "buffalo" rat wings but they were kind of grainy. Could really use some help here - lot's of rats around going to waste. does anyone have a good recipe for rat. I tried making "buffalo" rat wings but they were kind of grainy. Could really use some help here – lot's of rats around going to waste.

]]> By: Ellen Walker http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-567 Ellen Walker Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:15:10 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-567 As there appears to be no middle ground in this discussion, it seems pointless to give references or support for medical research since there is a fundamental differences in people's views on the place of animals in world. This is remarkably like the pro-choice debate. The libelous statements against researchers like myself are not supported with facts and silly comments like a 150 degree hot plate [please - that is not even physically possible and an obvious exaggeration] are given as facts. It is also a fact, that medicines to treat rats for respiratory ailments, have been tested in many, many rats and mice and are prescribed by vets in Philadelphia for Marina's rats. So rats can die for a pet rat's sake but she would save a rat over a person? I would always save Marina's life over any animal even my pets, and would continue to do research to do so whether she likes it or not. I also find the arguments that the 'struggles' of animals is akin to the struggles of slaves or Jews in the Holocaust are particular offensive and misantropic. Especially since Nazi Germany was busy passing laws preventing animal research and a pro-vegetarian agenda as it began its eugenics programs on Jews. Myself, I see no connections between these issues. Or the notion of experimenting on people with low IQs or prisoners. This seems an absurd agrument to me. An interesting book (although no one on the other side will bother to read it) is called the 'Scalpel and the Butterfly' by Deborah Rudacille. It chronicles the fundamental disagreement and philosophy of both sides, as well as documents some of the tactics used by extremists in the animal right's world (the references Marina requests). It is more updated than the excellent article by Katie McCabe "Beyond Cruelty" an investigative report into the PETA movement of the 1990s. Although Alex Pacheo tried to sue the Washingtonian for libel, the Washingtonian won an easy victory in court. Unfortunately, I must exit this debate at this time because I have been requested, actually begged, by some of the patients suffering from chemotherapeutic deficits in cognition to help figure out possible cures for their suffering so they can return to normal lives. My work is more important. And if anyone in the discussion, God forbids, gets cancer and needs treatment to live a longer life, please thank a mouse on your way to the hospital. As there appears to be no middle ground in this discussion, it seems pointless to give references or support for medical research since there is a fundamental differences in people's views on the place of animals in world. This is remarkably like the pro-choice debate.

The libelous statements against researchers like myself are not supported with facts and silly comments like a 150 degree hot plate [please - that is not even physically possible and an obvious exaggeration] are given as facts. It is also a fact, that medicines to treat rats for respiratory ailments, have been tested in many, many rats and mice and are prescribed by vets in Philadelphia for Marina's rats. So rats can die for a pet rat's sake but she would save a rat over a person? I would always save Marina's life over any animal even my pets, and would continue to do research to do so whether she likes it or not.

I also find the arguments that the 'struggles' of animals is akin to the struggles of slaves or Jews in the Holocaust are particular offensive and misantropic. Especially since Nazi Germany was busy passing laws preventing animal research and a pro-vegetarian agenda as it began its eugenics programs on Jews. Myself, I see no connections between these issues. Or the notion of experimenting on people with low IQs or prisoners. This seems an absurd agrument to me.

An interesting book (although no one on the other side will bother to read it) is called the 'Scalpel and the Butterfly' by Deborah Rudacille. It chronicles the fundamental disagreement and philosophy of both sides, as well as documents some of the tactics used by extremists in the animal right's world (the references Marina requests). It is more updated than the excellent article by Katie McCabe "Beyond Cruelty" an investigative report into the PETA movement of the 1990s. Although Alex Pacheo tried to sue the Washingtonian for libel, the Washingtonian won an easy victory in court.

Unfortunately, I must exit this debate at this time because I have been requested, actually begged, by some of the patients suffering from chemotherapeutic deficits in cognition to help figure out possible cures for their suffering so they can return to normal lives. My work is more important. And if anyone in the discussion, God forbids, gets cancer and needs treatment to live a longer life, please thank a mouse on your way to the hospital.

]]> By: Marina http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-566 Marina Sat, 29 Aug 2009 04:25:14 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-566 DANTANA - please provide a source for your libelous statement that the groups you mention were found to have distorted facts by photoshopping documents. We're all ears. DANTANA – please provide a source for your libelous statement that the groups you mention were found to have distorted facts by photoshopping documents.

We're all ears.

]]> By: Marina http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-565 Marina Sat, 29 Aug 2009 04:23:18 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-565 JJ - sorry my analogy offended you, but it's completely valid. You wrote that you value human life over animal life as a reason to justify treating animals as research tools but didn't provide any scientific basis for doing so. Your post consisted solely of your opinion without any facts to support it. You mention the importance of facts but your post is strangely devoid of even one. I'll ask again: I value my life more than yours. Does that gives me the right to do with you as I see fit? Why not answer the question instead of trying divert attention from it by mentioning PETA? JJ – sorry my analogy offended you, but it's completely valid. You wrote that you value human life over animal life as a reason to justify treating animals as research tools but didn't provide any scientific basis for doing so. Your post consisted solely of your opinion without any facts to support it. You mention the importance of facts but your post is strangely devoid of even one.

I'll ask again: I value my life more than yours. Does that gives me the right to do with you as I see fit? Why not answer the question instead of trying divert attention from it by mentioning PETA?

]]> By: Ann http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-564 Ann Sat, 29 Aug 2009 00:21:58 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-564 For a listing of just one animal terrorist group and its tactics that is local, check out this blog: http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/408 Beating people with axe handles is certainly compassionate. Scaring children too. For a listing of just one animal terrorist group and its tactics that is local, check out this blog:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/408

Beating people with axe handles is certainly compassionate. Scaring children too.

]]> By: Rachel http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-563 Rachel Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:47:35 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-563 Kyle, did you notice what this article's about? Was it titled "Our Complicated Relationship with Other People?" You're changing things around so that you can throw your 2 cents in (which are not fact-based -- I dare you to provide me with where you get your information - AND a gross overgenerlization of animal rights activists as a whole), and your disgraceful tangeant, defacing a compassionate and mainly peaceful group of human beings should be disregarded as the rantings of a person who has no compassion himself. Kyle, did you notice what this article's about? Was it titled "Our Complicated Relationship with Other People?"

You're changing things around so that you can throw your 2 cents in (which are not fact-based — I dare you to provide me with where you get your information – AND a gross overgenerlization of animal rights activists as a whole), and your disgraceful tangeant, defacing a compassionate and mainly peaceful group of human beings should be disregarded as the rantings of a person who has no compassion himself.

]]> By: John http://whyy.org/cms/news/health-science/behavioral-health-health-science/2009/08/20/pet-dinner-research-subject-our-complicated-relationship-with-animals/15514/comment-page-1#comment-562 John Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:46:25 +0000 http://whyy.org/cms/news/?p=15514#comment-562 Maria, I'm not sure I understand what you witnessed at Temple Med School, how you got there or what you saw at a middle school. But -- and you may want to sit down for this -- as a student I conducted experiments with many hundreds of mice. I have even performed hot plate experiments (not sure which ones you observed or were told about) to evaluate very important properties of pain-killing drugs with very real implications for sick, suffering people. And I think I'm a rather compassionate guy, overall. Every animal was evaluated by a veterinarian. Every procedure was reviewed by an IACUC board before we could proceed, and every procedure was designed to reduce the numbers of animals needed and the stress to which they'd be exposed. There is no smoking gun. I'm just a regular guy, I don't make my living doing this. I have no incentive other than the duty to tell the truth and a desire to see reason prevail. Now, I don't agree with you even a little bit regarding the 'right' of animals not to be used in scientific research. But I would never, ever sneak into your house or your place of work to find out how you love your rats or how many shoulder rides you give them each day, or otherwise impose my value system on you. I respect your right to be different from me, even though I think your view is harmful to humanity at large. Please offer me, and those whose careers are devoted to the effort to understand why our mothers and fathers get cancer, why our children have pain syndromes that render their lives miserable, why our friends develop addictions to medications that ruin lives, and many other pursuits, the same respect. Don't support organizations and individuals who terrorize scientists and bludgeon corporations who fund science with boycotts and falsehoods. And certainly don't imitate their deceit by sneaking into medical schools, if that is what you describe. There are disastrous conditions that beset the human organism. Cancer is real. Addiction is real. Alzheimer's disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Multiple Sclerosis are real. People are dying of these diseases right now. Who is trying to understand them? Who will make progress and try to eliminate these terrors? You? Those who agree with you? Think of your human family and friends and tell me which of them you would volunteer to take morphine and place their feet on a hot plate, to take cancer drugs and try to solve a puzzle, or to have a tumor inserted into their brains to see if a new drug works to shrink it without first killing them. Because those are the kinds of things that have to be done to answer the infinite questions that keep us in the dark about so many ailments. I wish no mouse or rat ever had to deal with such a terrible fate. I agree that sucks for that rat. But do you not agree that it sucks more -- and in a fundamentally different way -- when a person suffers and dies because of our limited knowledge? You don't have to agree with a scientist, like me, but I do ask that you leave me, and those who are asking these questions alone. While this debate goes on, those people will hopefully employ legions of mice and rats to help spare you, me and the rest of us sorry human beings from the sad sicknesses that may already be festering within. If you won't contribute to our understanding of ourselves, please just let the rest of us take care of that in peace and safety. Maria, I'm not sure I understand what you witnessed at Temple Med School, how you got there or what you saw at a middle school. But — and you may want to sit down for this — as a student I conducted experiments with many hundreds of mice. I have even performed hot plate experiments (not sure which ones you observed or were told about) to evaluate very important properties of pain-killing drugs with very real implications for sick, suffering people. And I think I'm a rather compassionate guy, overall.

Every animal was evaluated by a veterinarian. Every procedure was reviewed by an IACUC board before we could proceed, and every procedure was designed to reduce the numbers of animals needed and the stress to which they'd be exposed. There is no smoking gun. I'm just a regular guy, I don't make my living doing this. I have no incentive other than the duty to tell the truth and a desire to see reason prevail.

Now, I don't agree with you even a little bit regarding the 'right' of animals not to be used in scientific research. But I would never, ever sneak into your house or your place of work to find out how you love your rats or how many shoulder rides you give them each day, or otherwise impose my value system on you. I respect your right to be different from me, even though I think your view is harmful to humanity at large.

Please offer me, and those whose careers are devoted to the effort to understand why our mothers and fathers get cancer, why our children have pain syndromes that render their lives miserable, why our friends develop addictions to medications that ruin lives, and many other pursuits, the same respect. Don't support organizations and individuals who terrorize scientists and bludgeon corporations who fund science with boycotts and falsehoods. And certainly don't imitate their deceit by sneaking into medical schools, if that is what you describe.

There are disastrous conditions that beset the human organism. Cancer is real. Addiction is real. Alzheimer's disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Multiple Sclerosis are real. People are dying of these diseases right now. Who is trying to understand them? Who will make progress and try to eliminate these terrors? You? Those who agree with you?

Think of your human family and friends and tell me which of them you would volunteer to take morphine and place their feet on a hot plate, to take cancer drugs and try to solve a puzzle, or to have a tumor inserted into their brains to see if a new drug works to shrink it without first killing them. Because those are the kinds of things that have to be done to answer the infinite questions that keep us in the dark about so many ailments. I wish no mouse or rat ever had to deal with such a terrible fate. I agree that sucks for that rat. But do you not agree that it sucks more — and in a fundamentally different way — when a person suffers and dies because of our limited knowledge?

You don't have to agree with a scientist, like me, but I do ask that you leave me, and those who are asking these questions alone. While this debate goes on, those people will hopefully employ legions of mice and rats to help spare you, me and the rest of us sorry human beings from the sad sicknesses that may already be festering within.

If you won't contribute to our understanding of ourselves, please just let the rest of us take care of that in peace and safety.

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